Member Info for Phimx

Repression: Clues?

Observer: electric boilers are very cheap and simple, no gas to burn. Stick an element in water and all the heat transferred to the water.

Jimb2's link to the Focussed Magnetics story looked interesting, I noted it was dated Feb 2018 and his patents stem from around 2016. I tried to find some follow up but it appears another Game Changer hasn't gripped the business world, none of the big motor companies have ripped his hand off, well not so far!

Observer: to make sense of my reply, I was replying to your 19:30, the first I saw. I should have also read your others and your link before replying.

Observer: I had begun to suspect that 20 to 25 kW may be over the top after I found that, roughly very roughly, it takes about 2 kW to heat a medium to large living room. Also there is not a a great deal goes into a bath. Of course this all depends on many factors not least the temperature you want. Of course with a couple of kids in separate bathrooms and in the depths of winter you'll reach a maximum. I think, off the top of my head 10-15 kW to heat a house in winter from cold. Once warmed and depending upon insulation that figure will reduce, lets say by half. So let's say 8 kW max when warmed up and then with different rooms set up differently the average could be even lower. Personally my heating comes on at set times unless it's unusually cold and then goes off till early morning. Of course some may have theirs set to simmer levels throughout the night. The occasional bath won't have much impact. But using the Charger in domestic use has allways irked me. I doubt I've had the CH on for a handful of hours this summer and it hasn't been a great summer. Where does my electric come from with the Charger stood idle - the grid. Is it making me money for 5 months of the year - no. How will intermittent switching affect the costs. Of course as we've agreed under the correct regime it could make you a considerable profit after a couple of years. That makes me think, if the Charger really has been changed for the better then some serious long term testing in real environments needs to be carried out and published. Otherwise me and other sceptical purchasers will stick to tried and tested products.

Any ex Inspirit employees out there ? They are probably a very rare breed !

Jimb2: Off the top of my head faster cycles will only increase frequency for an ac generator. The power generated will depend upon the magnitude of the voltage and current not the frequency. Oldblue is the HVAC design man, he can reply. I'm sure the Helium has always been part of the system, its advantages over air have been known for a long time but the disadvantages of Helium- containing it has been the problem.

Observer: " I'll be quite surprised if it fails this time - but never say never!"

If Inspirit stay true to form, you'll never know !

Thorndon: If they are going to take the plunge, then some big money will have to appear from somewhere and fairly soon. Otherwise the game is up.

Observer:

"IMHO, they need to get a product to market, any product will do! ASAP! ;-)" *** I agree

"personally I'm *very* happy that they are branching out into other sectors and business models. " *** Don't agree, seems at odds with your first comment.

It is obvious they don't have the wherewithall to do everything.

As for " And besides, there is no guarantee the current unit will pass the necessary regulatory hurdles: makes sense to have other business avenues! ;-)" ***

That isn't an option, If they can't get this passed then its totally pointless dreaming of 300 kW units or solar or anything else. This is their base unit, its success is paramount it drives other models and applications. Failure to obtain verification the first time is understandable, failure to quickly rectify and resubmit isn't and that was about 4-5 years ago ! Did they say " we failed verification, never mind we'll embark on design for manufacture instead, far easier " ?

Not the stamp of a company going places is it?

Observer: Apart from a total lack of feedback from Inspirit is there anything makes you think this was so ?

Since JG is a simple money man he probably underestimated the task in hand. Getting CE approval for the electronics is not straight forward. One answer to my question is the obvious.

Eternal development guarantees an eternal wage, far better than taking the big step into production and possible failure.

His rebuff of CH is difficult to understand. If he has a deal with Sweden then it should announced because it would have significant affect on the share price. If he is still discussing, then it makes sense to see what is being proposed by other parties - it costs little. If I were a shareholder I'd expect him to listen, if it comes to a vote again he is doing himself no favours. CH releasing the words of the conversation makes them look like pratts and I'm sure that was the intention.

Observer: fully agree with you, apart from one minor point. As you say, get your first model out, make a name, continue to improve, reduce costs, identify new markets and so on BUT Disenco did the graft and the clever bits via the Norwegians. All Inspirit had to do was tart it up and sell it. It was a 15/3 kW device back in 2008. Why do they claim to be branching out into other applications without first launching and proving the first base product.

Seems to be an all or nothing strategy

Observer: when all said and done even a 15 kW boiler after the heat enhancement is a pathetic output. If Disenco or Inspirit were to quote 11.6 kWt and 6.4 kWe simultaneously then I don't think the market would take it very seriously. Many combi boilers are 20 to 25 kW. Using the Charger as a lead boiler in a commercial setting , where you could have a constant load, seems to be let down by its pathetic output about 12 kW. That's barely enough to heat a handful of offices.

Observer:

Re: Inspirit's statement on embarking on new applications the motor/gen and developing schematics I.e.

? Inspirit Motor/ Generator - designed in line with the Inspirit Charger to start the unit & convert electrical output to the grid.

BUT that aspect has already been well sorted by Sentec years ago supposedly, from the web site

"This power output is managed by our own power electronics to provide clean electricity in whatever form, frequency and voltage the client may require."

This seems to me to be an attempt to use the charger as a simple generator rather than a boiler. But to tout it as a new application/ product is simply a bit of PR to excite investors.

It would seem it's not a new application just a matter of digging out the drawings for the original grid-tie system. On the subject of electronics -Frequency conversion is no trivial task. I have never seen any hint of electronics in any photographs by Inspirit or Disenco

Observer:

Read the method of heat extraction on the web site. Number 3 seems to be the route to feeding back the generated electricity to produce 15 kW

3: From a heat exchanger built into the engine’s heater head.

Observer: we can only use what's is given and then guess the rest! What is given is

Max Gas Heat Input (GVC) = 20 kW

No ifs or buts, that's what Inspirit website states in grey and white. From that they obtain 6.4 kW of electricity. Hence 35 % Stirling efficiency and indeed praiseworthy

For those that have lost the will to live, my take of what goes on :

First of all the system efficiency is fixed at around 90 to 92%. I'll use 91%The Stirling engine produces 6.4 KW of electric.
If the efficiency is 91% then for 20 kW gas input only 18.2 heats the Stirling, it produces 6.4 kW therefore 11.8 kW comes out as hot water. That's it done. BUT BUT BUT!

Who will buy a poxy 11.8 kW boiler for £10,000 + £1500 installation - no one ! so it was decided to boost the heat output to make it a more attractive proposition. So they took some of the electric and used it to produce more heat. They took 3.2 kW of electric to create 3.2 kW of thermal

Now the specs read 15 kW thermal and 3.2 kW electric simultaneously. This now looks a bit more useful BUT it gets sold to Inspirit, from the flopped Disenco. Inspirit now think its better to push the electric aspect and now start to talk of a peak electric output of 6.4 kW whilst still maintaining 15 kW of thermal. Yes you can have 6.4 kW electric and also 15 kW thermal BUT not at the same time. The inspirit web site now says you can have an electric output of 6.4 kW max and 1 kW min and a thermal output of 15 kW max and 5 kW min. BUT BUT BUT not necessarily at the same time.

While under optimum conditions some good savings can be made, i.e. assuming you can use ALL the outputs ALL the time. The reality is, without some form of storage devices most of the time you'll be wasting your electric or heat and those savings will never materialise. Only a comprehensive and detailed study will determine what savings can be made. I doubt this will ever be a household name just another failed mCHP project.

Observer: I agree, I think I've wrote about this statement in the past. First of all what is meant by a 2000 hour running cycle. Others have called a cycle, the variations in heating requirements I.e. The changes going from winter to summer. The peak 6.4 would obviously occur in summer. Note that peak isn't maximum but peak could equal maximum. It could be read as " previously the output was 3e whilst maintaining 15t but also note 6.4e figure has no associated thermal figure with it. From what I think I know now, then it's simply a play on the configurations. No efficiencies were improved or made but it was presented as if Inspirit had made some big improvements for all that development work. The fact that Disenco mentioned they might produce a 6 kW version is important I think or the guy had second sight. Simply not using the electric to boost thermal then you have a 6.4 version but with a lousy 11.6 kW thermal, it becomes more of a generator than a boiler

Observer: your The system efficiency of throwing away the kWt would be a PR nightmare. In fact, didn't recent legislation in the UK, or was it Europe declare boilers have to be greater than 90-92% efficient?

What boiler ? It's a water cooled motor generator

Observer: it would seem possible, as already mentioned, to have an output of 18 kWt but imagine trying to sell that. 18 kW hot water boiler for £10,000.

What statements are you referring to ?