The latest Investing Matters Podcast with Jean Roche, Co-Manager of Schroder UK Mid Cap Investment Trust has just been released. Listen here.
London South East prides itself on its community spirit, and in order to keep the chat section problem free, we ask all members to follow these simple rules. In these rules, we refer to ourselves as "we", "us", "our". The user of the website is referred to as "you" and "your".
By posting on our share chat boards you are agreeing to the following:
The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. As a user you agree to any information you have entered being stored in a database. You agree that we have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic or board at any time should we see fit. You agree that we have the right to remove any post without notice. You agree that we have the right to suspend your account without notice.
Please note some users may not behave properly and may post content that is misleading, untrue or offensive.
It is not possible for us to fully monitor all content all of the time but where we have actually received notice of any content that is potentially misleading, untrue, offensive, unlawful, infringes third party rights or is potentially in breach of these terms and conditions, then we will review such content, decide whether to remove it from this website and act accordingly.
Premium Members are members that have a premium subscription with London South East. You can subscribe here.
London South East does not endorse such members, and posts should not be construed as advice and represent the opinions of the authors, not those of London South East Ltd, or its affiliates.
or a NationalTrust
Or a Royal Mail (not a Royal Male, ladies!)
This issue isn’t weather it combusts when coming in contact with air, which it can, it’s the added expense with transport and containment ;
Hydrogen safety covers the safe production, handling and use of hydrogen - particularly hydrogen gas fuel and liquid hydrogen. The main concern in working with hydrogen is flammability.
Hydrogen possesses the NFPA 704's highest rating of 4 on the flammability scale because it is flammable when mixed even in small amounts with ordinary air; ignition can occur at a volumetric ratio of hydrogen to air as low as 4% due to the oxygen in the air and the simplicity and chemical properties of the reaction. However, hydrogen has no rating for innate hazard for reactivity or toxicity. The storage and use of hydrogen poses unique challenges due to its ease of leaking as a gaseous fuel, low-energy ignition, wide range of combustible fuel-air mixtures, buoyancy, and its ability to embrittle metals that must be accounted for to ensure safe operation. Liquid hydrogen poses additional challenges due to its increased density and the extremely low temperatures needed to keep it in liquid form.
Andle - we have discussed this many times on this board and with one particularly annoying poster who was banned from this board before Christmas. Hydrogen is safe or is a safe as any other gas. It is being pumped into the gas network into your home (in certain parts of the country at least). Coming on this board and discussing safety of H2 when AFC has all the necessary safety approvals in place is deemed to be a non-topic in my opinion. The H2 economy is taking burgeoning - we need this new economy to address our very urgent climate issues. Just look out of the window again this morning - this weather is not normal and will continue like this unless we start to address these real world issues, NOW !
Andie,
Why do you think AFC do a full independent HAZOP audit on their equipment?
Why do you think Hydrogen would suddenly leak? And why do you think the risk of a leak is any greater than petrol, diesel, propane/calor gas?
It's pretty clear to everyone building the Hydrogen Economy that there is a risk, and the point if independent HAZOP audit reports is to make the risk as negligible as possible.
Nice Googling Andle, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_safety
I agree that it combusts easily, in low and high concentrations, and with a low threshold to ignite in terms of the energy required.
However your statement was explicitly that mere contact with air causes ignition, this is not true.
To quote "Pure hydrogen tends to explode when coming in contact with air. Thankfully petrol doesn’t."
Ferroty has a different opinion regarding combustion and I suspect that there was enough energy generated in the release that ignition occurred.
Petrol doesn't burn, it's vapours do.
When I worked at AFC about 8 years ago the regulations for the storage and use of Hydrogen were INCREDIBLY strict. Every part of the system was inspected by an independent outside operation. I seem to remember a professor was the leading the inspection team and he was VERY fussy (a good thing of course). We had to install sensors and warning devices everywhere. Everything was signed off and it was drummed in to all employees how important it was to stick to the rules when using/handling/storing hydrogen. So 10 years on there is no need to doubt whether all the safety aspects are at the top of the priority list for all companies handling hydrogen.
What’s your issue here 13thMonkey too much time on your hands?
Back to AFC who I trust to have done their sums and can justify the use of a cracker over pure Hydrogen in certain circumstances (they can use either) to be a lead product for them(not leading product!!)
Yes Monkey on release from the hydrogenator you are talking about 600psi mixed with small amount of solvent vapour and vented over 30mins with steam injected into the vent line, it may well be it's not pure H2.
Give AFC a call Haggis maybe you can convince them to get rid of the cracker and go with your idea?
Me I’m sticking with AFC,s idea of using a cracker as the best way forward for now.
Or am I missing something here?
It’s back to work for me BBFN.
My issue is the spread of fear, uncertainty and doubt with facts that are simply incorrect.
I bet those winter nights fly by 13th!!
Glad you're sorted about H2 safety. Regarding cost - well that's the big one. So how could it possibly work with high cost of compression/storage/ liquifying etc? You have to factor in that a fuel cell is about 2.5 times more efficient at converting furl into movement than an ICE running on gasoline/diesel. That's down to the Carnot cycle and any amount of electronics and engine management cannot change that. Then there's tariffs. Given that most of the price of a gallon of petrol is tax, the issue of production and storage comes less of an issue provided the government wishes to support clean energy going forward.
Finally, infrastructure, before WW1 a gallon of diesel cost more than the equivalent of $100 within 4 years and once the infrastructure was in place that price fell by three orders of magnitude. Im not sure why we're having the discussion if you're invested in this technology. Anyway, its not insurmountable and thats because clean, renewable energy HAS to happen at some point.
Able,
What you are clearly missing here is that I'm not trying to get AFC to change anything, I am saying that Ammonia won't be practical or financially viable on smaller systems, but where space is available and bigger systems will be used it can work, but is still a decision that the buyer will make.
Suppose a site is on an industrial estate where Hydrogen is available, but the nearest Ammonia is 60 miles away. It may still make sense even with a bigger system, to use the locally produced Hydrogen. The decision has to be for the buyer, as it is they that will be paying for the fuel.
Hydrogen filled balloons, like Hindenburg, vented hydrogen when landing and height control, even back in the 18th century. I don't think any vented hydrogen burnt in air!!
A lot of false unqualified hot air going around about its danger.
Tinlode, don't get your knickers in a twist about BS being spouted though ;)
muscorum,
One where an Ammonia cracker makes the cost of charging too expensive.
It's up to the accountants to work that one out, based on the cost of 'off the shelf' Ammonia crackers, plus Ammonia, plus cracker annua maintenance and wear part replacement.
Haggis ....I thought the costs quoted by AFC were assuming the fuel cells will be running on Ammonia .....i maybe wrong .
I appreciate that but i have seen it before on news flow that sp rises and a large seller pulls the sp down what we really need is orders and even then it will need a hell of a lot of buys to offset all of ra shares of he wants to offload them
Have they really sold that many shares - how many does Abramovich now own? Can't make out why he would be selling now after all these years with the future price.....
Aloso, that "gap" that came up at 26p before the surge up last week, there have been two more since but they mean nothing to me....anyone else?
RA has between 6-6.5%. Once below 3% he'll go off radar...
Still the Russian contingent supported the company when it needed it most I guess, so we have to thank them for that.
I'm hoping that denora want a piece of afc and maybe they will only do as a majority holder
Plus Schroders did as well last week --- what does direct and indirect mean. Indirect, one company to another and direct sold into the market?
Direct can mean held in their own name. Indirect can mean held in a fund or trust where they are a beneficiary.
Mucksy,
"I'm hoping that denora want a piece of afc and maybe they will only do as a majority holder"
In that case they'd buy it outright, and we would be given our money and told to take a walk.