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Sharesport, doesn’t this Rolec ad tell you something about the existing competitive market that’s out there?
Rolec EV/VendElectric electric vehicle charging points provide the ideal EV charging solution for every location. These charging points are easy to install, easy to use, easy to manage - and produce an instant revenue stream for your business.
For your customers, staff and visitors to charge their EV all you need is an electricity supply and a Rolec EV charging point, it’s that easy.
In other words if you have a electricity grid supply on site or nearby then Rolec EV charging is an oven ready EV charging facility that’s cheap to install and run and provides an instant income to boot. Compare this with the implications of installing AFC EV Charger units in public places and/or supermarket car parks. It’s a public safety nightmare in comparison. An operational container full of fuel cells is an operational container full of hydrogen. And that’s before even considering the necessary delivery, handling and storage of hydrogen feedstock. Hydrogen, if inhaled is deadly to humans and one of the most volatile substances on earth. In short, it's a potential bomb and health hazard.. There are not too many oven ready situations in the UK or elsewhere for this little problem, is there? It’s lamentable that during the hype of last week some posters on here where advocating that AFC’s EV containers could be rolled out to the rear in every public car park and supermarket in the country. Wake up. The public safety implications alone mean that the cost analysis for installing hydrogen/ammonia installations anywhere will be much higher and less competitive than existing grid connections and where existing electricity is readily available (nearly everywhere) it will be a limiting factor for demand for AFC’s EV charger units. Remote situation excepted, but there aren’t to many of these that are oven ready either. A slow build up of the order book is implied (perhaps years) and not helped by the fact that no product warranty is yet available. Bmac
BMac, Europe are keen to pipe 100% hydrogen through the existing distribution networks. Why do you think it would be such a problem when storage of the gas or liquid will be to approved standards? What is your issue here ? You clearly are not an engineer ? Do you think that AFC would develop these solutions over such a long period without considering infrastructure and storage ?
Bananaman has a valid point regarding AFC being aware but I’m still going to give my vote to Bmac. The ev charger points are so much more simple n easy to use now rather than AFC model. However if AFC get in to the game it’s many years away.
How does the afc model work then? Enlighten us!
Munchbox54 .... Please tell us which EV you currently drive and why you would not use the AFC charger ...
Why would Rolec bother getting involved then ?
I don't think the Hydrogen chargers are being touted as a direct like for like alternative to Grid Electric but there are opportunities for offgrid instalations.
And lets remember the EV charger is just one application of the technology - the AFC portfolio has several different strands and there will be spinoffs - for example AlkaMem which aims to compete with Nafion in a whole host of industrial applications.
Bmac's arguments seem to centre on how many sales and how much profit AFC will generate next year - and in that context his arguments may look persuasive but this is an emerging disruptive technology and it's simply not appropriate to start talking about PE ratios and profit margins at this stage. The potential is huge, the drive for clean, green sustainable energy is the latest GoldRush....
I’m sure you all know about the problems we are having with our grid presently taking our peak electricity from France well food for thought...
One UK analysis concluded that in a town with a population of 6,800, just 900 EVs entering the system could lead to brownouts (through a drop in the voltage of supply). At a more local level, a pilot project showed problems when just five 3.5 kW chargers were connected to a network cluster (with 134 dwellings) and charged at the same time. That project concluded that 32% of UK low voltage circuits (312,000 in total) would require reinforcing if 40% – 70% of customers had EV’s with 3.5 kW chargers (i.e. very slow ones, with 7kW now becoming the norm). That was estimated as a present-day cost of around £2.5bn. Ouch.
AFC might not have the answer to EV charging but they will have a part to play.
The AFC EV charger and current EV chargers will be identical as a customer. It will only be the writing on the unit that will tell you which company you are buying the electric from. Just like a petrol station forecourt.
The point of the AFC EV charger is to avoid the need for permanent installation of electrical supply. It is for off grid charging. Construction sites, carparking, festivals. The list goes on. The fuel cell only provides the power the EV charger. Same system can also be used to replace diesel generators. There is such a big thing about hydrogen storage. It really is no more difficult than storage of gas or fuels. Many of the issues with EV charging being on grid are access to a reliable power supply. Wih the AFC EV charger there are no issues. Don't just think UK think global market. EV charger market alone is massive. Then we have generator replacement, power for transportation such as trains, shipping etc. Ideal solution is the high density power fuel cell system. AFC have the lowest cost options in the world. Keep bashing. I would like to buy more but want to get below my average. Potential here is massive. The AlkaMem licensing is also another massive Avenue for revenue. Just mind blowing potential.
banaman, re your quote….. BMac, Europe are keen to pipe 100% hydrogen through the existing distribution networks….etc.
Is it convenient or what that you ignore the important competitive issues that I raised in my last post? I’ve heard stories about piping hydrogen for ages now. It hasn’t happened and at what cost if/when it ever does. Are these pipes already running to every supermarket, public carpark and potential charging location along every highway in every country? Well, the electricity grid is. It’s already there and ready to go! Remote locations accepted and those industries or services that already produce(use) hydrogen/ammonia and have all the health and safety and public hazard requirements paid and catered for, AFC’s EV Chargers, on a cost competitive basis, has no chance against existing electricity grid installations. In the short to near term therefore (and quite apart from the warranty challenge) I do not see as big a demand for AFC’s products as others do on this board. Like I said, a slow order book. There is far too much hype and not enough realism in place. Some people need to adjust their thought processes and let some of the gas dissipate on this one. Bmac
Why are you here tapping away like a mad man then? Entertain me! Any skin in the game eh?
Bmac:
I accept that you have a right to your view, and you post politely if challengingly. My concern is that your posts are not balanced such that they look at the whole picture.
May I hence ask you:
1. Do you see any value in Alkamem? Do you think my comments re near term value attributable to Alkamem realistic
2. Do you accept that AFC may well receive orders for off grid EV charging....their target market. If so what value do you attribute to that
3. Do you accept De Nora's assessment of the AFC fuel cell as world class. If so do you agree that the fuel cell market is expanding....many external research reports and commentators say so. And if so what value do you then place on AFC?
4. Do you accept that AFC have funding options in place already..the Thalion facility?
I can fully accept people's concerns re AFC....but these have been massively de-risked. Could you give us a more holisitic review and perhaps a more balanced review. This will make you seem less like a paid deramper and more like a board contributor.
Finally, are you invested? If not why do you put so much time into the board. I'm sure it is not simply philanthropy on your part.
This is more misinformation from the derampers. The supply solution is discussed in the excellent proactive investors video i posted earlier. AB uses Japan as the example as it transitions to electric vehicles. AFC can use low grade hydrogen or ammonia to make the cost of electricity extremely competitive. For those who might be duped by this latest attempt at deramping, please see the investor video and decide for yourself.....interesting pattern emerging here: those with faith in AFC and a positive attitude to investing in a green and clean world beating technology company pointing to facts and asking people to check it out for themselves, and those with questionable deramping motives offering opinions and no evidence to back it up. Can’t be fairer to PIs in saying don’t take my word for it, do the research and check for yourselves. I have confidence you will arrive at the same conclusion as me: great prospects, on the cusp of something big, technology ready to go and linked to some BIG players Rolec and Denora with established reputations and supply/manufacturing networks.
BMac. You miss my point. However, the existing gas infrastructure does run pretty much everywhere as well as the electric. Regardless, that is not the point. I am not suggesting that the EV charger has hydrogen piped to it. I am pointing out that hydrogen can be contained safely and does not present a problem. There are existing infrastructure projects currently operating with a hydrogen blend. The reason it is not 100% hydrogen and only 20% is to avoid the need to change appliances such as boiler and cookers. I have posted reference to these projects on here before. Here it is again
www.hynet.co.uk
There are also plenty of other across Europe.
The hydrogen economy is coming. We should be supporting business like AFC.
Also.
www.hydeploy.co.uk
People should read Bmac's posts in context (and you can work that out for yourselves).
The focus of comments is very narrow - being the EV charger (only one application of the tech) and it's merits as a direct competitor to Grid supplied EV chargers. And he uses financial ratios like P/E and the prospect of near term sales and profits to gauge the value of the business.
AFC are leaders in a disruptive technology that seeks to address problems that are increasingly front and centre in the minds of not just the the worlds population but policy makers and industrialists alike. The potential is huge, it is genuinely a Gold Rush.
Talking about the technicalities of production and distribution and next years P/E ratio is missing the point on a spectacular scale.
It’s the additional costs of meeting the safety standards for the installation of fuel cell powered systems as opposed to using existing electricity grid applications, that you should focus on.
Hydrogen safety - Wikipedia
The storage and use of hydrogen poses unique challenges due to its ease of leaking as a gaseous fuel, low-energy ignition, wide range of combustible fuel-air mixtures, buoyancy, and its ability to embrittle metals that must be accounted for to ensure safe operation. Liquid hydrogen poses additional challenges due to its increased density and the extremely low temperatures needed to keep it in liquid form.
Additional to the codes and standards for hydrogen technology products, there are codes and standards for hydrogen safety, for the safe handling of hydrogen[3] and the storage of hydrogen.
Liquid Hydrogen requires complex storage technology such as the special thermally insulated containers and requires special handling common to all cryogenic substances.
Some examples of recorded incidents…
In January 2007 an explosion of compressed hydrogen during delivery at the Muskingum River Coal Plant (owned and operated by AEP) caused significant damage and killed one person.
During the 2011 Fukushima nuclear accident, three reactor buildings were damaged by hydrogen explosions.
In February 2018, on the way to an FCV hydrogen station, a truck carrying about 24 compressed hydrogen tanks caught fire. This caused the evacuation initially of a one-mile radius area of Diamond Bar, a suburb of Los Angeles, CA.
In May 2019 a hydrogen tank exploded killing 2 and injuring 6 in Gangneung, South Korea at the Gangwon Technopark.
Re-posted so you won't miss it.
Bmac:
I accept that you have a right to your view, and you post politely if challengingly. My concern is that your posts are not balanced such that they look at the whole picture.
May I hence ask you:
1. Do you see any value in Alkamem? Do you think my comments re near term value attributable to Alkamem realistic
2. Do you accept that AFC may well receive orders for off grid EV charging....their target market. If so what value do you attribute to that
3. Do you accept De Nora's assessment of the AFC fuel cell as world class. If so do you agree that the fuel cell market is expanding....many external research reports and commentators say so. And if so what value do you then place on AFC?
4. Do you accept that AFC have funding options in place already..the Thalion facility?
I can fully accept people's concerns re AFC....but these have been massively de-risked. Could you give us a more holisitic review and perhaps a more balanced review. This will make you seem less like a paid deramper and more like a board contributor.
Finally, are you invested? If not why do you put so much time into the board. I'm sure it is not simply philanthropy on your part
At what time in life did you decided to ditch the world of physics and chemistry to become a person who just taps away ****ging off a company endlessly that you aren't invested in? The mind bogggles! ;-)
BMac, you really are a fool if you think AFC have not considered how to store and transport hydrogen within the system. Hydrogen does embrittle steel but requires much higher pressures than would be required from storage or transportation. Leave this to the experts. There are too many desk top engineers with using Google to research and create opinions. AFC have been working with hydrogen for a very long time and have been working with leading experts in chemistry and metallurgy. I think they have got this covered.
There are also humans driving around with fuel cell powered cars. Filling up on hydrogen to provide fuel for power. In fact I believe waitrose have a hydrogen filling station in the north west. I will try and find a link.
athansius….if you really want to enthuse me then best that you convince me first, and others.
Produce convincing answers to the four questions that you have posed to me and put time lines alongside each. Don't forget to include the impact of all non-existent warranties. Bmac
The point is, why run a vehicle on hydrogen when you can charge a battery. Why run electric or hydrogen pipeline to a remote location whe you can provide power through an AFC by using stored ammonia. Your reasoning is completely floored. There will always be room for direct to grid EV charging but currently there is a huge gap for off grid EV charging. Motorway services may have power but to wire in additional EV charge points may present an issue. In comes Rolec with the off grid EV charger.
I think your response has lost you any credibility you had. I offered you a chance to provide balance and you failed to take it.
Clearly you are a paid deramper after all.
banaman...how about considering the cost/return competitive position for AFC against installing grid charging units at a customers site like the following....
site procurement, design, detailed planning, planning permissions, front and back end engineering, environmental impacts, public safety, health and safety and other such clearances and logistical assessments for every installation, external and internal, affecting both buyer and seller, impacting total costs (not just the cost consideration per KWh) for an AFC EV Charger installation and the frequent handling, delivery, cost and storage of the hydrogen feedstock. Bmac