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And just to make sure they extract full value from the Tai-1 drill one of the Phase 2 survey lines passes directly through it as well!

Not a coincidence, I think.

dai, must confess I haven't had chance to see the latest interview. Hopefully sometime tomorrow!

The most important thing about the Tai-1 drilling location was that it was directly over a survey line.

It didn't matter - at the time that it decided to drill there (IMHO) - that it was suboptimal for finding a helium reservoir because it would give the ground truth for what was under every other survey line which had been carried out. Tai-2 was also directly over the survey line. This was effectively virgin territory.

At the time they said it was cheaper to drill there as the survey line had already been marked out.

I surmise that they believed the amount of information acquired on the first drill would have outweighed it being suboptimal for a discovery, but that didn't matter as they would get at least 2 more and likely 3 more drills in during 2021; and they thought if they didn't hit helium with Tai-1 then there was a good chance of doing so with the subsequent drills, along the anticline SW towards the fault.

What they didn't factor in was that the drill wasn't powerful enough or suitable for what they were doing, and Tai-1 would effectively be the only chance they would get, and in the end didn't even get firm results from that due to the collapsed hole.

Quite where this leaves the shallow <400M drilling and the deeper 2,500M drilling I'm not sure as Tai targets are 700M and 1200M.

Maybe they are now thinking with the Tai-1 results relating to clay seals and subsequent findings they can get a shallow discovery @400M at Tai and can then fund the deeper drills in the Autumn.

Hopefully not too long to wait for an update.

dai, don't worry too much about that, other things are on most people's mind at the moment.

But just thinking out loud again about the Tai drill...trying to reconcile where we now know Tai-1 was drilled with the geological information disclosed and the MSS survey.

It was meant to be one of 3 or 4 drills in the 2021 campaign - not necessarily all at Tai, but they could have been depending on results. As it was they got 1 the results of which were promising, but somewhat inconclusive, and then a bit of a drill 20 metres away that pinched out.

I wonder at what point they decided that they were, after all using the wrong drill?

Possibly they were concerned after they lost the drill string and had to do the side track, and definitely after they had got to TD and couldn't test. So I'd say sometime after mid drill the first well.

Certainly prior to Tai-2, which was just 70 metres depth, from memory. (I think that this was just a quick test to see what the geology was like and whether it accorded with what they expected. I now think pinching out was what they expected.)

So this was a steep learning curve - but supposing Tai-1 was a success, at least in drilling terms if not actually discovery terms, what were the plans for the other 2/3 drills?

Well we don't know, maybe 1/2 at another location depending on results, leaving 1/2 at Tai? It is difficult to second guess DM & Co and what they were thinking at the time, but whilst Tai was a "must drill" location, maybe because the underlying geology was little understood Tai-1 wasn't drilled at the optimal location for discovery.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51879560441/in/dateposted-public/

It was drilled 70% of the distance between the SW fault and the NE fault, in line with the anticline, but if the line 13 slide is the "right" way round, if drilled vertically it would just catch the back end of the upper potential reservoir (blue) @ 700M, but miss completely the lower reservoir @ 1200M.

We now know from the new MSS that the significant helium seeps are back towards the SW fault, away from Tai-1, quite likely in line with the anticline.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51878621687/in/dateposted-public/

The helium seeps are significant as at IPO He1 said they would be above the reservoir -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51881321343/in/dateposted-public/

So maybe it was intended that Tai-2 and -3 (and maybe 4) would be drilled ever closer to the SW fault, along the line of the anticline with ever better results, but all those plans were thrown into chaos by the incorrect equipment. If so, that would have given them a good idea of the extent of the reservoir, if one was present.

With the Phase 2 seismic they seem to have been keen to just "pinch" the outer limit of the helium seepage on the W and N sides.

Maybe close to the rectangular cursor is, after all, a potential drilling location for Tai-3.

That is the whole point - it isn't really about NATO, it is about keeping Putin in power.

And Crimea was taken by force, why supply the occupying power with water?

The US may indeed meddle, but they haven't got 70% of their army within 100 miles of Ukraine.

I doubt very much NATO will get involved - this is all about propping up Putin and his regime, and making the world safe for dictators.

Oil is one way of looking at matters, Russia is highly dependent upon oil/gas exports, and whilst the demise of oil may have been exaggerated, usage is only going one way...down.

Demographics is another. Russia's population fell by 1 million last year, it is in fairly steep decline.

China, long proposed as the next global superpower, also has a significant population problem. The population there is also in decline.

Indeed, on present demographic trends the population of the US will overtake that of China by the end of the century, when both will be around 750 million, the US population increase driven mainly by immigration.

Population matters.

People who cannot vote...vote with their feet. No one flees to Russia or China.

All the USA has to do is bide its time, and it will continue to dominate the globe.

Meanwhile Russian troops are on the move, but likely any attack will come from an unexpected direction.

Long term He1 should not be affected, but maybe the sourcing of resources will be separated into those for the dictators, those for the democracies.

Remember the old adage - "Buy on the sound of gunfire!"

Only one person knows whether there will be an invasion or not however he did move his superyacht from Hamburg to Kaliningrad several days ago, with repairs unfinished, so make of that what you will.

No one knows what the ultimate effects of such an invasion will be.

However... back to Google Earth...

I should emphasise that it may not in fact give any particular insights, but it does reveal some interesting things.

For example this is the latest image of Tai-1 with the MSS map overlaid

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51881241758/in/dateposted-public/

You can see the low level He emissions from the area of the pad, not strong red, but they appear to be there. There are similar emissions from the lake area immediately to the NW. The lake is dried up when this was taken (September 2021) but in the rainy season it is filled with water.

The lake appears to have been divided diagonally into sections. This has puzzled me for quite a while, because at Itumbula the lake is similarly divided, as are some, but not all, lakes in the area.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51870644065/in/dateposted-public/

The reason for these man made divisions - Salt!

The locals harvest salt from the lakes as the water evaporates.

This recent paper (free to download) goes into great detail concerning the salt at Itumbula, but doesn't mention anything about Helium, alas.

https://www.ajol.info/index.php/tjs/article/view/207037

Now the salt beds at Itumbula appear to be associated with the highest level helium shows, in the west part of the lake, as shown in the Helium One presentation. I had earlier speculated that Helium One may have been able to recover He samples from the lake immediately to the NW of Tai-1 during the rainy season, when the lake was full.

If the Tai lake is geologically similar to Itumbula where the He springs are well known (10.6%) and the locals are able to harvest salt at both, then maybe this explains the decision to drill close to the lake.

Just though this may be of interest.

Swissy - yes it was a bit tricky, but once you get the hang of it, it is quite fun.

But everyone has to make up their own mind as to whether to buy or sell. I, of course, am an enthusiast.

I am a bit surprised that the company gave us so much with the MSS, the MSS itself told us nothing about the location but it was superimposed upon the latest GE map so you could then align the two and get the exact location of Tai-1 and the MSS seeps.

The 13/14 lines and the associated scale then allowed those to be superimposed on that, which gave you the actual location of the faults.

Dai - I guess the gas could theoretically flow downwards, if it was under pressure. but I wouldn't expect it to - Helium would always be trying to escape pressure to get to the surface, and then to space, unless prevented for doing so.

If the line 13 slide is the right way around then presumably the two faults shown are those to the SW and NE of Tai-1, and the highest point of the anticline which is where any reservoir would be would be closest to the SW fault, but Tai-1 was drilled closer to the NE fault.

On the other hand the seepage shown on the MSS survey could be coming from a reservoir as shown on p91 of the admission document, but that would still not explain why Tai-1 was drilled where it was.

But maybe also I am just reading too much into documents which were not intended to be for this purpose and are intended to be of a more general nature.

Time will tell and hopefully we'll get more information soon.

I've been messing about on Google Earth again and trying to relate the line 13/14 seismic data which has been shown in numerous Helium One presentations

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51878589462/in/dateposted-public/

to the "ground truth" on Google Earth and to the MSS data, and see how this relates to the whole.

Fortunately, He1 provided us with the 13/14 lines on the MSS map, and then you can align the two with GE, correct to get them all in scale and voila, hopefully you have something which is interesting....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51879871369/in/dateposted-public/

The seismic data is on a much larger scale than the MSS data, and the MSS data is the slightly lighter coloured box just to the left of centre on the photo above.

This is a close up of the area we are interested in

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51879560441/in/dateposted-public/

showing the location of Tai-1, the two traces of the 13 and 14 seismic lines superimposed upon one another, the MSS survey data (the blotchy bit) and a white line indicating what I believe is the course of the anticline shown on the line 14 data, here,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51878621687/in/dateposted-public/

Of course one should be careful about drawing firm conclusions as these are not proper geological drawings, are somewhat stylised and no doubt lack vital information.

But it appears that my location, hypothesised a couple of weeks ago, for the fault immediately to the SW of Tai-1 was correct.

This fault marks a clear boundary between the two areas of surface helium emissions in the MSS survey, suggesting that the fault does prevent the helium from escaping.

I had proposed a fault almost immediately to the NE of Tai, and this fault does appear but around 100 metres further away from Tai than I had supposed.

Looking at the 13 line it appears Tai-1 was drilled around two thirds of the way between the two faults , assuming the faults to the SW and NE are those shown on the left slide "dip line". If so a vertical drill would miss the lower proposed reservoir, or has slide 13 been reversed, if so a vertical drill would the in the right place.

If slide 13 has been reversed then the highest part of the anticline would be to the NE, and the MSS helium shows would be spilling out around the "back" of the reservoir and rising to the surface.

Still thinking about that, and how it might be nailed, reversed or not.

Anyway it looked quite interesting to me, I was always puzzled about how the slides related to what was on the ground, so thought I'd share.

Except the disputed invoices have nothing to do with the delay.....

"As a result of the Covid Pandemic, there have been unavoidable delays in the completion of the audit of the Company's Tanzanian Subsidiaries due to the availability of personnel and the movement of such personnel in country to complete stock-takes of inventory items at the camp at Rukwa"

US travel advisory in December 2021 was do not travel to Tanzania due to Covid 19.

Conflating of the disputed invoices with Covid makes me more suspicious of the poster than of the company, particularly as he appears to be a "one trick pony" - the delay in the accounts appears to be his only party line.

I have no doubt the accounts will appear by the due date.

Didn't really intend posting this weekend, but this caught my eye -

"When the first wrong drill was set up in the wrong location and the project failed, as you know the SP and value of the business crashed from 30p to 6p"

It may well have been the wrong drill for the right task, or maybe the right drill, but for the wrong task, but I would certainly disagree with the wrong location.

And was it a failure? Maybe in absolute discovery terms, but that is a very high bar on the first drill, so I'd say probably not a failure in terms of information obtained.

I think they will drill again at Tai, but not necessarily from this pad, maybe a couple of hundred metres to the east, or a hundred or so to the south - but what do I really know, very little probably?

I think they are gunning for a discovery (obviously), and Tai remains the place where that is most likely to happen IMHO.

I think these could do well as a new drill progresses, after that it all depends on results. Hopefully history will not repeat.

We will see what Spring brings, rain stops in May or thereabouts, I think.

Latorre - perhaps I was trying to be a little bit "devils advocate" in one of my last posts, but the fact remains that, despite the vast licence area, thus far that He1 have only drilled one complete well, and were unable to properly test that, and then did 70M at a second well at the same location.

Of course progress has been made since 2015/6, but the outlay at present is modest, maybe around £7M for everything.

A well, Ivuna 1 had been drilled around 10km NE of Tai-1 in 1987, and some seismic conducted around the same time, so the region was not totally unknown even in 2015/6.

The Sentinel 2 data which I described as "gold dust" (and I think it is) could have been obtained by anyone at anytime since 2015 when the Sentinel 2 series started to be placed in orbit - was it obtained earlier, likely not as no one would have had an interest in doing so?

But the evidence, albeit without that crucial discovery, is continuing to stack up, as with the RNS today.

So now we haveconfirmed evidence of good quality reservoirs and seals, to add to the helium bubbles, and significant quantities of helium escaping at the surface, possibly from overflowing helium reservoirs at Tai. The MSS survey, I believe showed that this seepage was related to the faulting at this location, but as KeithOz pointed out was not actually from the faults themselves.

Some may prefer to await the actual discovery, as it will still have legs even after that, but people who buy then will of course be paying a multiple of today's price.

The sp may well be being held, but certainly I sometimes imagine things which may not be there.

That said after the massive fall and recent spike there does appear to be some renewed strength.

I don't think He1 will have to wait for the full ERT survey results before contracting a rig. I suspect that they have most of the information they require for the shallow drilling already.

And just to be clear, it isn't just the results of seismic or drilling which are important, it is the brains behind the project which are probably more important and can see things which others cannot, and have the strength and foresight to see a project through to conclusion.

I for one am certainly hoping for, or even expecting a positive result.

Another way of looking at things is that the prospects today for actually finding recoverable helium are not actually that much different than they were in 2015/6 when the original research into the area had been completed.

If a major wanted to take it then the time to do so would have been then, and they could have probably got an even more extensive licence area and then thrown gazillions at it.

But they didn't.

We think He1 have done a lot of work at Rukwa (He1 may think that also), but the reality is that we had a "mixed" drilling campaign - putting it politely - managed one and a bit wells, spent $3-4 mill on that, have thrown a couple of $ mill at 2D seismic, and snapped a few pics with a commercial satellite, as anyone can.

We may think that there has been massive progress, but in the grand scheme of things, it ain't really a lot.

The reality is that little has changed from 2015/6.

That said, I'm sure that quite a few are looking at what is going on at Rukwa with interest, but I think that is as far as it goes at present.

After all the only thing a potential suitor has to do, having missed out in 2015/6 is start buying the lowly priced shares; buy enough and you are the only game in town. So far as we are aware no one has, although you have to bear in mind that this is a BVI company and we may be at something of a disadvantage information wise, in that respect.

However I am a believer! You've gotta be or you wouldn't be here.

So just to whet appetites, here is a rehash of the MSS survey from "that" tweet a couple of weeks ago -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51870082498/in/dateposted-public/

this is a similar photo from the Itumbula Helium springs, about which DM made such a fuss of in his video (10% He etc etc), taken from the latest presentation

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51870644065/in/dateposted-public/

and which is more impressive?

Obviously there is no key, and some data could have been manipulated, but on the face of it there is a lot more seepage at Tai.

And just for context they are around 10 miles apart...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51869031977/in/dateposted-public/

Hopefully they'll be drilling April/May 2022!

I too seriously doubt that any sort of JV is on the cards, and I simply cannot understand where all this talk has come from.

Whilst He1 could never develop any large scale resource on their own, at present all they have is a load of licences, a lot of hope and have barely scratched the surface in terms of drilling or seismic.

It would be a brave, nay foolhardy, oil executive who put their pen to paper offering gazillions to explore and develop what is after all virgin territory. A potential career breaker rather than career maker, if you look at it objectively.

And as for He1 it would really be a desperate move - for the future it would be the money that did all the talking, DM & Co would be sidelined, and DM would forever be the "nearly man" - the man who nearly discovered the Rukwa Helium Reserves, but sold out too soon, leaving others to claim the glory.

A JV at present is in the interests of neither He1, DM nor a Major.

As He1 is presently in total control - what is in their interests?

Well, obviously, getting a helium discovery. They may have been close last year at Tai.

Tai is now much better understood than 12 months ago. 2 wells drilled, much better seismic, MSS + ERT survey etc, makes sense to stay here, as all the results appear to be good, but no definitive discovery, as yet. That Tai is frequently referenced in tweets and RNS's suggests that they will stay here, at least initially.

Money is tight as always, £8.7M at 31-10-2021, possibly a bit less now, but enough provided they don't undertake a major deep drill campaign to 2,500M.

The November 2021 presentation (less than three months ago, originally referenced 19-10-2021) ) appeared to lay out a clear roadmap. One slide devoted to deeper drilling in Q3/Q4 2022 and one slide devoted to shallow drilling under 400M Q1/Q2 2022.

The shallow drill slide on p14 stated

(Point 4) - Remote Sensing to id surface seepage Q4 2021, well we got that with the MSS survey results on 17-1-2022

(Point 5) - ERT/MT survey to id gas filled reservoirs near surface Q4/Q1 2022 - well that commenced on 7-2-2022

And (Point 6)...

Target drilling with lightweight rig Q1/Q2 2022.

It seems to me they are simply following what they stated in the November 2022 Presentation and there is no mystery over what the next move will be - lightweight rig for shallow targets- it is all there.

This would hopefully make a shallow discovery, proving up the concept for deeper drilling, and allowing a fundraising at a multiple of today's share price.

Only when there have been several deep drill discoveries would I suspect it to be appropriate to consider any sort of JV.

Negotiate from strength, and DM will also always be known as the man who did discover the Rukwa Helium Reserves.

As for cash, it is referred to in the accounts of Wingas/SEL - the company was transferred with the cash in the bank account. Wingas and SEL are the same entity of course, simply different names, as I'm sure you appreciate. Ownership of the shares in that company were transferred from The Russian Federation to Forum Energy Services Limited.

As for being a ramper, maybe I am a bit, but with AAOG, which is my only interest here, it is difficult to ramp as they are delisted.

I know that some on here do not seem to rate Paul Forrest much in terms of financial acumen, and he does seem to present as as something of a provincial accountant of likely modest means, however it appears to me that he may have hidden talents.

For example, on 17-6-2019 he acquired the stranded Saltfleetby Gas Field via ownership of Saltfleetby Energy Limited (SEL) from Gazprom. We have never been told how much he paid (bearing in mind his limited means), but I'd hazard it was £1.00.

Whatever he paid, SEL was the recipient of not only the gas field but also £14M in cash inherited from Gazprom as "decommissioning costs", as at that time it was apparently intended the field would never be brought back into operation; and also £61M in tax losses.

On 19-6-2019 SEL sells, for £1.00, 51% of the gas field to ANGS, paying them £2.5M in decommissioning costs for the liability they were now taking on - in the short space of 48 hours the field is now viable once more.

ANGS is co-opted to resurrect the Saltfleetby field, tapping its own shareholders as required.

So over the space of two days (17-9-2019 to 19-9-2019) Mr Forrest turns a £9M profit, via the suddenly reduced decommissioning costs - and later ANGS says that even the £2.5M was too high! And SEL's 49% share of such decommissioning costs is now shown as £700K in their accounts.

Not only that, but SEL's latest accounts (1-1-2019 to 31-5-2020) show that it made £12M profit - we don't have access to the P&L, just the balance sheet showing accumulated losses falling from £61M to £49M - probably by shifting the worthless "abandoned assets" into the valuable "soon to be producing assets" column.

He then uses some of the £14M given on the sale by Gazprom to buy up 25% of AAOG for £500K and acquire effective control of a company which has a further £42M of accumulated losses against with future profits can be written off. Not satisfied with that, SEL grants AAOG an option for a mere £8M in shares to buy 25% of the previously worthless Saltfleetby. Last week he was sufficiently influential to be appointed a director of AAOG.

So, in the space of 3 years Mr Forrest, with no visible major means of support,

acquires a stranded gas field,

achieves control of SEL and AAOG, is appointed a director to both

co-opts ANGS into resurrecting Saltfleetby,

"pockets" (not personally) £9M+ from Gazprom which is then used to pay for SEL's share of the resurrection,

grants AAOG an £8M option to acquire 25% of the previously worthless Saltflletby

makes a £12M profit in the SEL accounts,

and acquires effective control of company losses to be set against otherwise taxable profits, totalling £103M.

For someone with little financial acumen, he doesn't appear to be doing so bad.

He must think he's won the Lotto.

And I don't think his backers are Filipino.

And I wonder who bought some of the 175M new shares ANGS issued last week?

Sorry that should be SE to NW

Dai, with regard to the p13 slide you can see immediately SW of the area marked tai the main fault is SW to NE.

I thought I'd just add a bit more to my earlier posts concerning the Tai-1 drilling site and the picture released for the MSS survey.

I should state that I'm no geologist but I do have a passing interest in geology. I do think that the MSS picture reveals far more than appears at first glance, so I'll explain why I think it is "gold dust".

Firstly it reveals the true site of Tai-1 - which previously the company appeared to be careful to hide.

Secondly you can superimpose the MSS map on Google Earth and get the precise location of what appear to be helium seeps. The MSS picture does not reveal the concentrations of helium found and there is no key, so we actually lack vital information - no doubt this is deliberate.

So lets begin....

This is a GE image of Tai-1 and the surrounding area. The image is dated January 2019, I use this as it shows certain features more clearly than later images, so it is actually pre drill and doesn't show the pad.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51848739802/in/dateposted-public/

It shows the actual location of Tai-1/!A/2 (but not the pad), the location "Tai" to the NE was my location for Tai, estimated from the prospectus, and the actual coordinates given by He1 for Tai were near the crossroads to the SW of that.

So what we can do now is outline any lakes that appear in the image in red....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51850029729/in/dateposted-public/

Now this reveals (at least) two things - firstly all the lakes are elongated and run in a SE/NW direction - (is this coincidence? Well actually no it isn't) and secondly there is a lake just a hundred or so metres to the NE of Tai-1.

So why do all the lakes run SE/NW? It is well established that lakes can form along fault lines - think the Great Glen in Scotland and Loch Ness - even a child can spot that on a map, and everyone knows that Loch Ness is long and narrow.

So the lakes are a good indicator of where the faults are in the Tai-1 area, one is adjacent to Tai-1, one a little to the SW, marked by a kind of "shadow" and change in land use, and a third slightly harder to see a little further to the SW - so I've marked the most important (to us) three on this image...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51850030129/in/dateposted-public/

So now we have three faults, one adjacent to Tai-1, and two to the SW. Keen eyed observers would be able to spot three more in the east part of the image, marked out by the lakes and changes in land use.

Also look at the river (marked by a line of trees) which emerges from the south on the left part of the image - it flows northwards into the bottom most fault, disappears, then emerges from the left side of the middle fault, before flowing into and following the course of the third fault, off into the NW corner of the image.

That the faults are aligned SE/NW is no surprise, it is in fact shown on p84 of the prospectus...

Cont/

Cont/...

...but what we are able to do with the Tai-1 location is relate the faults in this area to Tai-1 itself.

So Tai-1 was drilled immediately adjacent to a fault and is also adjacent to a lake.

We can now superimpose the MSS picture over the location of the faults - I did try combining all the images but it got very messy, so I've simply copied the location of the faults from the last GE image on to the MSS image.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934344@N06/51849766778/in/dateposted-public/

So now we can see that the helium shows are directly related to the position of the faults.

Now this is where we need a real geologist (and we don't appear to have one) because the helium shows could be interpreted in a number of ways.

Firstly the helium could be flowing out of the two most southerly faults, and then drifting in the atmosphere to the NW in clouds to be picked up by the MSS instrument, before dissipating.

Or it could be coming up through the soil, maybe the faults are fractured close to the surface, and then registering on the MSS instrument.

I'm not sure which, but it is clear that it is the two most southerly faults which are the source of the helium. The fault adjacent to Tai-1 has very little leakage, presumably because there is an effective trap and seal there, although there is a small leakage actually at Tai-1 (did they disturb the soil/rock there, allowing leakage) and at the lake immediately to the NE of Tai-1.

There is no effective trap and seal at the two faults to the SW hence the gas is flowing out there.

The general idea of this is shown on pages 91 and 96 of the prospectus.

The actual schematic of the geology is shown on p 12 of the November 2021 presentation

That there is some leakage at the location of the lake immediately to the NE of Tai-1 is also interesting. DM did that "David Attenborough " video at the Itumbula Helium springs - could they already have recovered Tai samples bubbling up from the lake area in 2020/21 - the lake is now dry due to the drought, so they couldn't do it now?

So to summarise...IMHO

The helium shows on the MSS survey are clearly related to faults to the SW of Tai-1.

There is no significant leakage at the fault to the NE of Tai-1 as there is an effective trap and seal there.

They could have sampled Tai gas at the lake area pre drought.

That helium leaks from the two SW faults, and presumably has done for millenia shows that helium is being continually generated in the earths crust, thus so far as He1 is concerned it is an inexhaustible supply.

Tai-1 is the correct place to drill, as you don't want to drill where the gas is actually leaking.

Happy for anyone to challenge my findings if they so wish...