Member Info for redindi

JC

Thanks for that. Terry, maybe not such a shame, the trucks etc will still need it as if it were fitted at factory level although the logistics will be challenging I would imagine.
But the law is the law and don't let anybody forget that!

As the good Doctor might say 'no BS DMS'.

The SEYE DW covers two OEM's, three models and is worth A$15 million. The BMW extension is worth A$30 (or is it now A$50,from what Nick said) million. So one man's mass market is different from another man's mass market!

Lewbo

Yes, Gen 2, interesting point -

19/11/2018 - last follow on order for existing Gen 1 customer, BMW, who it looks like is the only Gen 1 customer who had such follow on orders.

01/02/2019 - Hyundai, no mention of which Gen. No follow on orders. Thought to be destined for China.

15/05/2019 - First Gen 2 order thought to be Renault and Mitsubishi and destined for China.

11/11/2019 - Second Gen 2 order, believed to be Nissan and Renault and destined for China.

So, of those believed to be for the European Market, none have been announced for Gen 2. BMW (now with SEE), Audi, JLR exactly none has gone for Gen 2 and rumours have gone the rounds about 'issues' with all those OEM's. Also, Geely, linked to Volvo, quiet. And Hyundai, quiet.

Then, you get SEE -

Cadillac - for Level 2+ (07/2019), with Super Cruise, extension, non European.
BMW - one extension (07/2019), order keeps getting bigger, and meets NCAP requirements.
Mercedes - one extension (09/2019) which meets NCAP requirements.

So, SEYE is not getting extensions for Gen 2 with existing customers and there are doubts it can keep them due to technical problems, BMW highlights this.

And SEE has extensions with existing customers which are for Level 2+ and/or meet ENCAP requirements. And, also has taken a customer away from another provider.

So, SEYE Gen 2 appears unsuited for Europe.

S7

I think it's a bit too late for SEYE to make that great big leap from where it is to where it needs to be (as do others). As of today, if you read what has been issued by the EU, Semicast has provided a link, SEYE for example does not meet the criteria required. The EU sees this as an ongoing project and wants to continuously improve road safety and with it reduce road deaths and injuries. It does not stop that process on 01/06/2022.
And that is why other eye tracking providers will find it very difficult, nigh impossible, to be included in any new models sold in the EU as from 01/06/2022.
It's also a question of resources and choice. SEYE has decided to call it a day and concentrate on China as its resources are stretched and likewise SEE has taken the conscious decision not to compete directly in China as it could not compete at the unit prices demanded (and other reasons) and devote its resources to the EU and similar.

S7

Strange thing that. The OEM's won't allow it but the EU (and if you want 5 star, neither will ENCAP).

So, looks like there will be some OEM's late to the party waiting and waiting for some other company to catch up.

Somehow I don't think so.

It's amazing just days after the EU announcement that SmartEye failed to mention either the new legislation (and look, one is for 2022) or ENCAP which if you have a look at the last two SEE OEM RNS it most definitely does.

Obviously an oversight by SmartEye. Either that or these models are destined for China where our one and only Chinese OEM is. From memory, that was for $10 million (over 5 years?), this is for $15 million (over 7 years). Looks like it's getting nasty out there!

https://mobile.twitter.com/semicast_res/status/1193809566007513088

CFP

Obviously you are talking after attending the CMD and having researched the company to have come to those conclusions.

All that talk of only going for profitable business to a very large extent precludes them from winning any business in China as it would not make a profit at the rates per vehicle on offer there. Large volumes do not necessarily lead to profitable business as many of the up to 40 convenience (which SEE also declines to do) DMS providers will soon find out.

Terry

I'm afraid you'd have to ask PM that. There may well be a way round it but the answer I got was not very enthusiastic about doing business with China.

Terry

I don't think our CEO would be against trading with China but there are a few provisos, namely respecting property rights or not as the case may be. Likewise, our American friends but at the back of their minds there could be up to 600 billion reasons a year why they might be having second thoughts, or even trade wars.

And, at it's core, SEE is an IP company and as past experiences make us who we are, that also may explain SEEs reluctance.

I just don't see it happening from the IP point or the cost point. Different markets require different products and China at present doesn't need safety DMS.

Schlem

Believe me, having anything to do with China is the last thing that SEE has planned. I doubt SEE would do Byton again although the saving grace is it's on a chip!

S2020

I'd agree that the 30% market share routinely quoted underplays the probable market share come 2022 but I think it may become a bit more nuanced than SEE or another DMS provider winning VAG in entirety for example. VAG is a global company with production facilities throughout the world, including China where it sells over 3 million vehicles per annum.
With the reluctance of SEE to even contemplate China for any future business (I believe Byton was a one off), SEE is leaving the field free for any other DMS provider to take the risk on. Not withstanding the fact that China, along with other areas is regulation lite and convenience DMS friendly.
We are now fairly certain that what is believed to be Hyundai (Kia), Renault /Mitsubishi (Nissan?) DWs for SEYE are for vehicles destined for China and that this also means there will still be a requirement for safety DMS for the same manufacturers for vehicles destined for Europe and similar areas. And that is a pattern that is likely to continue.
So, although not made clear by Colin in his presentation, I think the (circumstantial?) evidence points to his estimate of a 40/45% market share for SEE in 2022 is the extent of the safety DMS market. That figure is quite easy to get close to by assuming all of Europe post 06/2022 and premium brands for IP recognition areas (ie not China) and that this is likely to grow substantially in the event that the US and other areas follows EU legislation /ENCAP closely. The US alone should take that figure just above 60% I believe. And this dominance is set to continue as long as SEE retains its technological advantage.
Nick keeps on quoting the Automotive markets reluctance to accept a Tier 2 having such a stranglehold on a particular area of its business which is what you'd expect. However, I doubt any OEM will go for Eyesight for example if it can't sell cars in a particular area which would happen.
In a way, having a segmented DMS market is temporarily good for SEE as it gives the impression that SEE doesn't have such a stranglehold when in fact it has near as damn it 100%*safety DMS share of the market.
So, it's looking good and we haven't even looked at the other two legs of the stool!

Mr Bb

I agree, to roughly the time SEE receives the first licence fee!

Baron

You're probably correct. However, I think there has to be a lot of care taken as to how basic the DMS that may be fitted becomes. Just as in Tesla FSD, it could lull drivers into a false sense of security leading exactly to what was trying to be avoided.

Also, if you have a look at what the EU wants in detail, it is not so simple as buying a DMS kit from Halfords for example and having it fitted and away you go. The DMS is just one part of the deal. Without it, it wouldn't work but that equally goes for the other parts. Retrofitting would be possible but it's not as straight forward as just placing a camera pointing at the driver. The EU is looking at continuously improving road safety and that is at the core of what complicates the problem to the benefit of SEE above other DMS providers.

LIF

It's 30 months from when it's signed so possibly June 2022.

Schlem

This is clever marketing or gimmickry by TU. The DMS in the Crossover is in house and quite honestly makes most convenience DMS look good.

It is a sign of the times to come...

Hi juice

There was not enough time for a great number of questions.

Sorry

Lewbo or Terry?

Hi

Yes, haven't read everything yet but what was the message under everything else was these two letters - IP.

Forget everything else, in the end that's it, or rather IP.

Paul Mc very impressive and personable, thanks to everyone at Seeing Machines.

Last note, carry on JC, you've hit the nail on the head. Kudos.