Member Info for extrader

Hat tip to MM for the head's up.

I couldn't join, but here's the replay :

hxxps://www.linkedin.com/events/7120518203612504064/comments/

Lots of good stuff (nothing ZIOC-specific, but good vibes)

Gotta run!

ATB

Moniman,

You say you don't understand something and - by implication - ask for help.

I offer an explanation.

Instead of acknowledging (never mind thanking), you go on to ask another question showing your lack of commercial reality.

This seems to be a recurring practice.

Read this instead : https://www.nlpschool.com/games-people-play-yes-but-game/

"How to stop playing games

The key point about games is what Berne called ‘superficially rational’ – the person seems to have a genuine problem, but the hidden truth is they don’t want your help to fix it, they simply want your attention. The reason for this is as they can’t find a way of getting attention in a positive way, they have learnt ways to gain that attention negatively.

So how do you stop playing these ‘games’? As Berne put it in his usual succinct way,

“The only way to stop playing a game is to stop playing.”

Adios, amigo

.." still confused about why the new lender is paying a 40% premium on any loans converted into new HELD shares? Confused. com.."

You are mixing 2 things up. If not already done, pls read the RNS

The facility is in 2 parts :

(1) The Loan

"The principal and interest of the Facility are payable in cash or can be converted at 9.884 pence following approval of the Circular."

It's unstated who gets to choose. Since it's not stated, it's pretty safe to assume that it's the Lender's choice.

If the Lender can make a profit ie the shares are trading at more than 9.884p, he will choose shares and sell them for a profit. He may pre-sell, if he can trust HELD to deliver.

If the shares are trading at less, he'll ask for repayment in cash.

He'll have made 15% interest + 6% facility fee on his money.

(2) The Warrants

" 4,249,291 Warrants granted to the lender exercisable at 9.884p for 36 months, being a 40% premium to the 5-day preceding VWAP."

These are stated to be at Lenders' option. Again, if it wouldn't profitable to exercise ie buy the shares, because the s/p is lower, he won't exercise.

If it is (because the s/p is higher and he can sell the shares at a profit), he does.

They're a 3 year lottery ticket, independent of what happens with the loan.

Lender either (1) makes out WELL = 21%+ on his money or (2) makes out BETTER, if the S/p goes up enough.

Never mind Confused.com, is this a case of 'shoulda gone to Specsavers'?

What don't you understand?

Depending on its source, sometimes the link will offer to translate.

Or - depending on length- you can laboriously use google translate or DeepL, cutting and pasting then copying @ 5,000 words or whatever their limit is.

There may be other ways eg Bing, but I'm not up to speed, soz.

Good luck!

And, sticking with cars, this is the cheap end of the market that Saudi hopes to capture (intended production not disclosed),

CEER, which is a J/V with Taiwan's Foxconn (assembler of Apple devices)

https://www.thenationalnews.com/business/economy/2023/06/21/saudi-arabia-grants-industrial-licence-to-ceer-to-start-manufacturing-evs/

And - showing their political neutrality - they're also talking bigger numbers with mainland China

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/saudi-arabia-signs-56-bln-deal-with-chinese-ev-company-state-media-2023-06-12/, again no details re volume, but all good arguments for sourcing 'in-house' wherever possible.

They must feel like kids in a sweetshop...with Mum's credit card.

;->

I think it's fair to say that the Gulf Arabs understand 'hotels' better than they understand 'mining', so hopefully they'll be happy to overpay ;->

https://skift.com/2023/10/25/saudi-prince-al-waleed-adds-red-sea-mega-resort-to-his-empire/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotana_Hotels#History

https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Hotel-News/Qatar-has-edge-in-European-hotel-acquisitions

As the Qatari link mentions, there's an inherent conflict with Shari'ah because of the potential for 'naughty things ' to happen on premises but- at the end of the day-'money talks'.

And they're very 'real' assets, with lots of 'bragging rights' and ancillary benefits that everyone can wrap their head around.

This other PIF-backed EV venture might be interested in Saudi-owned 'green steel' feedstock, though

https://www.thenationalnews.com/business/technology/2023/10/10/pif-sets-up-company-to-boost-saudi-arabias-ev-and-automotive-ecosystem/

.."On Monday, PIF and Saudi Electricity Company announced a new EV infrastructure company that plans to set up 5,000 fast chargers across the country by 2030.

Last month, PIF-backed luxury EV maker Lucid Group said it opened its first international manufacturing plant in Saudi Arabia, which is expected to produce 155,000 electric vehicles a year.

In November last year, the PIF launched the kingdom's first electric vehicle brand, Ceer, which aims to attract more than $150 million in foreign direct investment and create up to 30,000 direct and indirect jobs..."

Note in passing that this company, Tasaru, .." is a joint venture with Zamil Group Real Estate Company, Abdullah Ibrahim Alkhorayef *Sons Company and Dar Al-Himmah Projects Company Ltd to develop an automotive logistics hub in King Abdullah Economic City, PIF said."

*The Minister of Industry, Bandar's family...

'Every little helps'...

ATB

I'm no more a 'self-appointed adjudicator' than you are. Oh, wait...

At least I have the decency to give credit where credit is due (verbally or by upticks) and try to add value to the sum of human knowledge if someone posts something that is factually incorrect.

If you're going to be a critic, better 'constructive' than 'armchair' wouldn't you agree?

Pls filter me, for both our sakes.

ATB

Hi Eddsy

I'm as keen as the next person to see ZIOC succeed...so I'm always pleased to see something / anything that advances the investment case. Call it 'confirmation bias'.

So I was naturally pleased to see MM's comment, although remembered that Volvo was already 'spoken for'.

He implicitly invited comment/research when he wrote, re BMW 'I think'.

So I did. I googled 'BMW green steel', then 'MB green steel' then 'Volkswagen green steel', with the results that I found.

I think MM's find re Pecem was significant as I happily acknowledged, only yesterday.

There's such a thing as 'over-egging' the pudding.

ATB

Hi MM,

As previously mentioned (not by me), Volvo has already covered its requirements

https://www.volvogroup.com/en/news-and-media/news/2023/sep/volvo-group-secures-increased-volumes-of-near-zero-emissions-steel-through-collaboration-with-h2-green-steel.html

And, prompted to look, it turns out that MB has too

https://group.mercedes-benz.com/sustainability/climate/h2-green-steel.html

seemingly making inroads into the US, where 'near-green' via EAF is already an option

And it seems that BMW has also got in on the act...again, with H2

https://www.bmwblog.com/2022/02/01/bmw-salzgitter-steel/

Even Porsche parent Volkswagen (if the relationship is that way round) is 'going local'

https://autovista24.autovistagroup.com/news/vw-inks-green-steel-deal-as-it-focuses-on-sustainable-supply-chains/

Although - ray of hope/shades of Dieselgate - it seems that German engineers have been telling porkies.....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-02/carmakers-are-buying-green-steel-that-s-far-from-carbon-free

so there's scope yet for a breakthrough from 'outside'.

The case for 'green steel' - and our ore - is good...and getting better, but - on the evidence available- not necessarily as quickly as we would wish.

Aluminium Bahrain, back in the 90's, 'future-proofed' its market by retrofitting to produce ' clean' aluminium way before it was a mandated requirement. It's now the largest smelter in the world (ex China).

I'm sure that's the way forward...and ZIOC would be a logical stepping stone for the new 'future-proof' Gulf smelters to emulate ALBA's success.

ATB

Just in from Seb

🔴On Thursday, beneficiaries of the judgment in the YPF Expropriation Case will try to persuade Judge Preska to apply NY State Law and force Argentina to deposit a guarantee bond to avoid enforcement and attachment of sovereign assets.

.."A cloth is also used as a meaning of raping together/joining. “Bo”= “Bao-ju”

That sounds pretty close to BaoWu to me.....;->

'Congo-BaoWu Iron Ore Project' doesn't exactly trip off the tongue, though.

Maybe that's why it got edited out , in the second print-out I took.

Hmmm...

.."we get a healthy share buyout price plus a holding in a ZIOC Royalty vehicle that owns a few % of Zanaga's future production which is then passed through to shareholders as a dividend. You could even leave it listed - the BP Prudhoe Bay Royalty Trust was listed/traded for many years in the US..."

Maybe it's an oil-sector thing? IIRC Enterprise Oil had some kind of 'participation rights' that left bought-out investors/shareholders with an income stream from its North Sea production for quite a number of years.

As a diluted proxy, I'd be quite happy to share in the Project's future success via a GLEN shareholding : if anybody has a future in the Project, surely it's them....and I'd trust Elphick to negotiate on his/our behalf for them to make an AGREED offer for ZIOC and pay us out of 'loose change' Treasury shares....

As of cob yesterday, GLEN had 1.3 billion shares sitting there, £ 5.7 billion equiv.

ZIOC currently has 633m shares in issue.

ATB

I don't see much of a role for 'legacy ZIOC' PI's in any future iteration of the 'Project', do you?

Any 'partnership' would be a pre-cursor to the Project, at some point PI's cease to add value and become a positive inconvenience (think disclosure requirements etc).

The most I would hope for - and this is pretty much at BoD/GLEN-level discretion - is some form of limited 'tag-along rights , giving us some crumbs after the Project gets underway.

Other than that, I'd expect we'll be bought out/squeezed out beforehand. From their PoV, wouldn't you?

If we are lucky, our mouths will be stuffed with gold, to help us go quietly.

That's OK by me.

In this article

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/RYhJACuw1o6X0wiAgzPFOA

TIA

Thanks for this!

Note the references to 'high-grade' - this aspect is getting more air-time now.

..'reserve of high-grade iron ore,..'

.." China's drive to achieve resource security and to decarbonise the steel value chain since Simandou offers higher-grade ore."

.."China's goal in the massive Simandou investment was higher quality ore development..."

.."though low-grade ores are in high demand now, the steel industry's aim to decarbonise the sector will lead to a growing demand for higher-grade ores.

Simandou will be a good option here with its capacity of 120 million tonnes per year of high-grade ore exports," Gao said..."

Note , too , that SCMP is suggesting that it's Rio that's dragging its heels...and not that it's had to fund extra because its Chinese partners haven't....

And, finally, the possibility that China will use African ore (Guinea) for a Chinese steel mill in Africa...'off-shoring' in action.

ATB

PS I asked if there was a clue to the Congo-Brazzaville mine in the reference to Congo-CLOTH Iron Ore Project in a press release a few days ago, possibly in the ideogram. Can you help?

...all the more so in light of your closing remark .." by now any potential partner/buyout will have a very clear idea what they are prepared to pay..."

Hi Jiving,

Totally agree that GLEN would be the driver for the discount.

My alternative, charitable explanation was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek ramp in these troubled times.

ATB

Hi marcusg71,

There are 2 separate issues here - the methodology and the outcome.

As to methodology, feel free to suggest how else you'd see the cake's ('known' size) being cut, amongst the (mostly known ) participants.

As to outcome, you're looking at it from the point of view of an (inconsequential) PI , not from the pov of the effective 'owners' (Guava, Garbet and GLEN).

In most companies, PI's are a (tolerated) source of fresh funds and occasional liquidity. ZIOC missed an 'early exit' wave in 2014, followed by years in the wilderness. Once ZIOC moved towards the end-game (COIDIC false start, followed by Covid hiatus, followed by gamechanger Ivan/Gary switch), we became irrelevant.

AT's reward (assuming things DO close) should be seen in his role as day-to-day trusted custodian of the keys (think what a few timely off-the -record comments might have been worth over the years, either to a trader or a commercially interested counterpart). To say nothing of the calibre needed to navigate the corporate, commercial, political, regulatory and other minefields over the last decade or so as the 'public face' of ZIOC. All without any evident career progression.

That role requires fairly golden handcuffs, it seems to me. At the equivalent stage of my own life and career ambitions, it would have been pretty soul-destroying.

Think of him as a poor man's mini- Elphick (who won his spurs as PA to Harry Oppenheimer, Chair of AngloAmerican and De Beers)- who got a rumoured $ 50m * pay-off when he left (presumably because he knew where a lot of bodies were buried).

* back when $50 M was worth something....

In that context, 2% doesn't seem excessive, based on what we know.

And count yourself lucky : there's comment elsewhere that - whatever the size of the pie and the eventual distribution amongst 'the few' - it's probably been forced significantly lower - by GLEN - than might otherwise have been the case !

I'm genuinely interested to hear how else you would see things split - and why?

ATB

Oh! and if AT's reading this, I'd be interested in your comments too, at some point ;->

Continued...

That 6th July RNS also said "As announced on 13 June 2023, the Company continues to advance its Product Outsourcing Development ("POD") concept and it is also pleased to advise that it is in late stage discussions with a number of funding sources, which include the application of a number of grants, which, if successful, will not only provide sufficient working capital for the accelerated construction of the initial PODs but also place the Company in a stronger working capital position than it was on admission."

N.B. for the third time: they'd applied for various "..grants which, IF SUCCESSFUL,.." would give them cash to start to build the initial PODs. So far they've received EUR €304,425 which, according to that RNS, would "...place the Company in a stronger working capital position than it was on admission." That confirms HELD was flat broke and we've been mislead by Rai.

So who is Elgo Dimitra and what's this five year MoU all about? From the 22nd March RNS, read this:

"ELGO-DIMITRA is a public sector entity functioning under the Greek Ministry of Agriculture, Development and Food, focusing on agricultural research, agricultural product quality and certification. The key actions proposed in the MoU include the research, cultivation, improvement evaluation and utilisation of specific strains of medical cannabis genetics. It is the intention that, through this research, new varieties and species of cannabis with improved yield, quality and adaptability will be created. [N.B. That is ELGO's research not HELD's.]

In the event that the parties agree to jointly undertake specific projects or collaborations, in the context of the MoU, a separate written contract will be drawn up which will define the obligations and responsibilities of each party."

There has been NO ANNOUNCEMENT of any such "separate written contract" which is required by UK law. That calls into question the honesty of that 11th October RNS re the commencement of cultivation.

Read the rest of HELD's "ambitions, hopes, beliefs and intentions" in that RNS as Rai implies they are lead partner. ELGO's President puts it differently:

"The experienced and specialized staff of ELGO-DIMITRA's Research Institute provide knowledge and contributes to the development of the agricultural production of Greece. With the MoU signed, the Institute of Plant Breeding and Genetic Resources, which deals with the experimental cultivation of medicinal cannabis, intends to proceed, in cooperation with Hellenic Dynamics, with the creation of new varieties of medicinal cannabis, the control of stabilisation of genetic material and selection of mother plants, the study of innovative systems cultivation in greenhouses and closed chambers as well as in the submission of new research proposals."

I think Rai has some explaining to do.

GLA

this , from masergt, says it all, imo

.."oh dear. they have not harvested. they've not even started growing. read this rns:

11 oct 2023 07:00

rns number : 7006p

hellenic dynamics plc

11 october 2023

11 october 2023

hellenic dynamics plc ("hellenic dynamics" or the "company")

commencement of cultivation

london, 11 october 2023, hellenic dynamics plc (lse: held), a medical cannabis cultivator with a dedicated focus on producing tetrahydrocannabinol ("thc") dominant strains of medical cannabis flowers for the burgeoning european medical cannabis markets, is pleased to confirm the beginning of cultivation.

following the announcement of 29 september 2023, elgo dimitra, the public research institute overseen by the greek ministry of agriculture, has begun the cultivation of medical cannabis flowers for hellenic dynamics.

it is the intention of the company to shortly update its website with a presentation of the site construction process to completion and a further announcement will be made to the market in due course."

did you understand this bit "... elgo dimitra, the public research institute overseen by the greek ministry of agriculture, has begun the cultivation of medical cannabis flowers for hellenic dynamics." that means a government research lab has planted, in its own laboratory, some seeds (or whatever?) for held. that means held has not started growing plants. it means held has not even started cultivation no matter what misleading words rai might have used.

now check this bit "it is the intention of the company [n.b. "intention" not 'we will'] to shortly update its website with a presentation of the site construction process to completion and a further announcement will be made to the market in due course." well that was three weeks ago and it doesn't take above half a day to put together a presentation about some construction they've got planned.

n.b. again, "site construction process to completion...". that, in my book, means they haven't even built the bloody thing yet. and it was supposed to be a ready made ex-nato facility.

this is just like the bad old days of buying spanish (or greek islands) timeshare properties off plan - send your deposit to this foreign bank account and kiss your dream bye bye. have you got it yet? they've got no cash. i'm saying they gave what was left of the original spc ipo money to rami ajami in july and all the clap trap about having saved money on second hand equipment is *******s. if true, what have they used it to build? where's the photos? where's the presentation?

continued...