Member Info for big-blue

Zig zag up and down, But at least the down side is still above my buy-in.

Back to square 1.
However, if it is only a small % still able to catch, then the greater % are immunised and herd immunity comes into effect so the chabces of the small % catching tends towards zero over time. My big concern is rather a lot of people in certain social groups not accepting the vaccine, I wonder if a degree of compulsion will be required, i.e. access to events, pubs, places of worship, any indoor gathering and travel dependant on showing vaccination. Sounds draconian, but the alternative is not reaching herd immunity and being forever weighed down with restrictions due to the existance of the virus.

SAGA up 8% and still climbing having released statement that they will only accept passangers on cruises who have been vaccinated. I am expecting much more of this over the coming couple of weeks.

Attention does seem to have moved away, but be prepared for news about vaccine passports ideas and whether they might go ahead in an organised fashion, peacemeal or not taken up. I think we have a very serious issue in the UK for not following the instructions on the packet and whilst the rest of the solar system has been slower by doing it right, I fear we shall be the hare and be over taken by the tortoise and end up being the only country on the planet without a proper passport. No public discussion yet on being able to buy a vaccination, would have thought the BBC would have been spitting feathers on that one by now. Naturally all the beeb will have to have priority vaccinations, I am sure they will dream up a special case reason once all the 70 year olds have been done.

Fiver says it is lost in T5 first use!

Think of it as a virtual share, rather than the distracting term CDI. The real share is safe and sound in Spain. Virtual shares are invented in London and traded as if they were in London. Protocols exist to ensure there is over trading and so on. Can Spain tax trading in virtual shares created and traded in another country. I don't think so.

If the law the Spanished passed replaced the word Spanish with German, how would you expect that to enforced in London? The CDI is in London, it is not within the jusrisdiction of Spain. The shares that the CDI represent are in Spain and therefore in the Spanish jurisdiction. But the point of the CDI is that the shares are not transferred to London. The CDI does not exist in Spain, it wasn't created in Spain and then shipped to London. It was created in London and hence English law applies, not Spanish law applies. It is clear in the definition I posted earlier, English law applies. In that case, mlud, Spain can flap their wings as much as they like, people trading the IAG shares under CDI protocols can not be made liable to any Spanish tax unless there is an arrangement to recognise that Spanish law in English law, as previously English law recognised European law and so anything the EU made law became English law. I can not see a mechanisim for Spanish law to become English law, unless there is a clause in the CDI rules that allow for extra-judicial action outside the jurisdiction where the law applies. It actually looks to me as if Spain thinks it has found some international loop whole that it could apply post-Brexit transition period. I suspect this is going to have to be tested in court because it seems it is not being applied by some brokers and Spain will have to test it in a UK court. In fact, the very principle that Spain will have to test it in a UK court in order to get an order to be appliciable in the UK kinda proves the point legally; it is unenforcable in the UK.

You misunderstood, the CDI is the item, not BA or IAG. Forget which stock it is, it could be any share created by CDI for trading in London. That is what the Spanish has tried to tax. It is outside their jurisdiction. They could just as well have levied the tax on trading CDI from a company based in Germany or India. If it wasn't a Spanish company, would the tax be questioned? Yes. The fact IAG is Spanish is actually not relevant as the law as constructed could cite any company.

6 years deferred payment and the deal happening at 50% of the original value is fantastic and very good negotiations!!

Yeah, but keep your tin hats on, incoming - new user tax per wheel rotation!

As far as I can see it covers IAG CDIs bought in the UK

But how? They can pass any law they like raising any tax they like any where they like. But how can it be enforcable in the UK? The item being taxed is in the UK, created in the UK. I can not see what mechanisim in law exists to enforce it in the UK, where it is clearly stated with CDI, English Law applies.

Robbyw,
From what I gather, there are a whole heap of new taxes around..... careful which nationality your 1€ pint comes from, you might find yourself in a German holding cell owing 5c tax!!!!!

When IAG paid dividends to UK CDI holders a withholding tax was first deducted in Spain

That is a tax levied within the jurisdiction of Spain, legal. Not saying that would be illegal. But where is the transaction when I buy shares through my broker? If my broker had to purchase FROM Spain on my behalf, then they would be taxed and pass it on to me. But the whole point of the CDI and varients is that the shares are based overseas from the parent country. It is like the Spanish wanting to tax me every time I bought a bottle of Spanish wine from the supermarket (they wouldn't get much lol). Would Waitrose slap a Spanish tax on me at the checkout on behalf of the Spanish government? They could put it in their terms and conditions that will collect the SWOPT (Spanish wine overseas purchase tax) Spain would not be able to compel UK stores to collect it. So I don't see how the Spanish can expect anybody in the world to levy and ecnforce their CDI tax. If such a practice was acceptable, governments would be applying a huge raft of taxes in forign countires and those countries would be expected to collecct them irrespective of the cummulative effect of multiple taxes on items sourced form multiple countires.

If it is allowed, why isn't the UK taxing the consumption of Marmite in Slovakia????

We're not buying a Spansih stock through a CREST portale of some sort. The item resides in the CREST system in London. The tax can not be applied to London held CDI. This tax is not enforcable. It might even contravene money laundering rules!!!

CDI is offered and managed in London, yet Spain can levy a tax on it in London. I think there is a significant problem with that. It can certainly be enforced in Spain. Law that can not be enforced is of no use. It must be encapsulated in some clause somwhere that the tax can be collected outside Spain. I am a bit suprised this has been under the radar and also tha the EU has allowed Spain to act independantly. I thought independant actions like that were illegal in the EU, one of the main reasons UK left!

"CREST issues CDIs representing these shares – one CDI for each share of underlying stock. These CDIs are an English law instrument and trades in them can be settled through CREST, just like a regular share. The underlying shares are held on trust for the owners of the CDI, who have full economic rights over them."

"CDIs and tax

In general, the tax treatment of CDIs is the same as applies to the underlying shares. In particular, this means that:

CDIs can be held in an Individual Savings Account (ISA), subject to the underlying stock trading on a recognised stock exchange, in line with the ISA rules.
Dividends on CDIs will be subject to the same withholding taxes as dividends paid directly. CREST is a Qualified Intermediary, meaning that it can pay US dividends at the lower rate due under the US-UK double taxation agreement, if your broker is set up to take advantage of this, but reclaiming tax on other dividends will be your responsibility, as usual.
There is no stamp duty due for trades in most CDIs."

It still looks to me that this is not a tax associated with the existing structure of being able to trade forighn stocks via LSE (CREST), but a new and separate tax that has been applied to the existing instrument. It is therefore not enforacable within the exisiting ssytem, unless there has been a pan global agreement to change the fundemental taxation structure. Is the US enforcing the collection of the tax for the Spanish on Wall St? I very much doubt it.

The law is passed in Spain, therefore the jurisdiction is within Spain. Unless there is an agreement between the UK and Spanish Jurisdictions that the UK will enforce Spanish law within the jurisdiction of the UK, the Spanish law is not applicable. Read your broker small print, it will say English law applies. On that basis, there is no no way to enforce the extranl law. Apart form Spain arresting you within its borders to extract any taxes due, the only other option would be for Spain to apply for the extradition of UK based traders to be physically based within Spain's borders and hence liable to Spain's laws. As UK is no longer part of the European arrest warrant there should be no danger of the 3am raid by shock police and being renditioned to a Spanish airport before sunrise. However, if Spain puts out a warrant within the EU, you might find yourself being arrested at the cafe in Paris or on the slopes in Italy.
I think there needs to be some explanation about how this is enforcable because I just can not see how Spain, or indeed any country, can expect to have their laws enforced in another jurisdiction withotu an explicit agreement to do so.

I get any country can pass whatever tax law it wants, but who then is obliged to enforce it? The Spanish can of course try and obtain the names and identies of those who have bought IAG shares through their UK broker and if that person enters Spain, they can arrest and put that person in prison for non-payment of tax. However, are the British courts expected to imprison UK nationals in the UK for not paying a Spanish tax? Am I the only one that sees the absurdity of this? Is it the case the British courts are obliged to apply any external law passed any where in the world, HMRC to collect any tax imposed externally anywhere in the world? I see no way that Spain could expect the enforcment of this tax collection (no taxation without representation blah blah) unless this has been signed in an agreement that the UK would do Spains bidding for them. Or has this come about in the trade deal?

Creamin off a tax on divs locally will be within the legal entity of the home country, easy to understand. But if the French were to ask your UK bank to take out of your account and pat 5% on profits from investing in a French company, under what legal framework would they have to demand and enforce that? VAT is a differnt matter as that is to do with taxing on the accumulation of profit as the transaction passes through the trading levels to th end consumer rather than just taxing the consumer. But even then, that would be the Spanish imposing their VAT law inside our taxation system. I don't see how this is actually legitimate.

But how is it enforcable? Under what legal framework are brokers obliged to deduct the money and pay it into a Spanish bank account? Levies by whatever name are imposed through treasuries are they not? So, USA decides and share traded in London through the LSE markets where the company is 'based' in the US must pay 8.6% on the gross value of any share purchase? An external instruction to gather a tax within the UK. If a brokeer did not comply, then what are the penalties and who would enforce them? HMRC prosecutes a broker for not collecting a tax theat does not exist in UK law? Can anybody else see a problem with this way of introducing taxation? Unless I am missing that this is the normal practice to date...

SO much for the united EU. Countires imposing individual taxes at will on external transactions. I thought that was supposed to be illegal.

It is a cheap money grab, all those backhanders need covering in these difficult times. How is LSE responding, the Spanish have effectively placed a tax on London share trade? What power does Spain have to 'collect' this tax? Is this in anyway enforceable? Is that why so many brokers seem to be simply ignoring the tax?