London South East prides itself on its community spirit, and in order to keep the chat section problem free, we ask all members to follow these simple rules. In these rules, we refer to ourselves as "we", "us", "our". The user of the website is referred to as "you" and "your".
By posting on our share chat boards you are agreeing to the following:
The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. As a user you agree to any information you have entered being stored in a database. You agree that we have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic or board at any time should we see fit. You agree that we have the right to remove any post without notice. You agree that we have the right to suspend your account without notice.
Please note some users may not behave properly and may post content that is misleading, untrue or offensive.
It is not possible for us to fully monitor all content all of the time but where we have actually received notice of any content that is potentially misleading, untrue, offensive, unlawful, infringes third party rights or is potentially in breach of these terms and conditions, then we will review such content, decide whether to remove it from this website and act accordingly.
Premium Members are members that have a premium subscription with London South East. You can subscribe here.
London South East does not endorse such members, and posts should not be construed as advice and represent the opinions of the authors, not those of London South East Ltd, or its affiliates.
Hi Fastfood . Have you signed up for Cag at Copl?
I see you were a genuine holder so will have lost big there. Time to get your money back!
Yes I’ve just checked / it was originally 15% with USA. So we have conceded ground down to 10% in return for the guaranteed up front Payments.
“Proposed 15% royalty and royalty sharing arrangements for the Company over all offering of products and services using CIZ1B via CorePath in the USA”
I think the MOU is better.
Royalty goes from 15 to 10 percent.
But we are guaranteed some income. Previously we wasn't.
If income exceeds what we are guaranteed we then get that.
We get 10 percent of BIO. If BIO really does well, then eventually lists that alone could propel our value to pounds. Think of how pharma firms go on NASDAQ...
Directors Talk 6mins 0 Sec onward. Allan confirms that the MoU sets out for Cizz to receive $2.4m over 30 Months as Guarantee. But adds that the 10% Royalty still stands. So can someone correct me on this if I’m wrong here / but previously I thought that the MoU’s Terms were a step down from the original agreement with Corepath ie : 10% of Sales. But actually with the new agreement we get the guarantee $2.4m so it’s an improvement yes ? We still get the 10% overall anyway.
So I was wrong on a previous Post saying we had conceded ground. The MoU represents a better deal than previous doesn’t it ??
Agree Sometime,
I think we've seen enough already understand how Ciz operate.
Seems they don't want to change their ways regarding communication
So it's have a punt / have faith and maybe wait several months to find out if you have wasted your money or got a deal.
I suspect in four months we'll be having this debate still
..waiting uneasily for an update..
How long do you wait?
Ps seems the MMs trying to drum up a bit of trade recently with a few ghost trades. (Pulled trades)
Ciz are probably not required to announce the commencement of the MOU but Allan knows shareholders are not happy with comms so why wouldn't he communicate it in someway even if it's not an RNS?
Regards
SBT
I don't know about bad taste..nobody's died.
But, yes, I agree, Vinc ..it was meant as a one-off discussion about the business to date..
Good that you've changed it. It did cross my mind, but I simply didn't notice the headline anymore while responding
Yes subject line was in bad taste. Well done and Agreed.
I consider myself quite a cautious person. (He says after investing in a fledgling business)
However, the flip side of the coin is that BIO is investing in this business to the tune of $2.3m. We are gambling 4mths of our time, yet they are putting their money where their mouth is upfront and as previously mentioned, minimums.
Let’s not forget, income streams of this magnitude don’t always get turned on from day one. It will take time. On that basis, I see it as more of a shared risk and if it comes off, then I think AS has done a decent job in protecting the Company.
Bio will have put skin in the game, so will be motivated to fast track this project.
Our gamble here is a 4mth reset.
Ps. I changed the subject line as I felt it in bad taste.
Hello again Brond..😁nice to see you. Hope you're well.
Obviously we're all playing with different packs of cards.
$1m are the minimum payments.
What a very conservative attitude to risk TT. With that attitude, theyd be better off in a deposit account.
If BIO doesnt come through, ciz will knock on other doors, BioTechne and others (possibly already are) Ultimately the IP is theirs. They don't need cash short term (probably why they raised) and can look elsewhere if needed.
BIOs benefit to acting now, early, is they get in more cheaply than they would once accuracy/specificity are proven at scale. I suspect ciz already knows rough outcome of this already from their own work on Jess platform. And i suspect Behnke does too, hence why going to the bother of setting up BIO.
I think the Cards we do hold Techt (other than the Patented Technology) are with regard to the Sales to rest of the World. Bio and the unnamed HNWI just won’t bypass the opportunity for themselves to miss out on a piece of the rest of the World potential.
Quickly / one can see that it’s complicated re Agreement but one hopes that Relationships are being formed and that parties can work together to achieve success. And then Repeat success with whatever else we have in the locker.
Or excuse the pun / it will all fall down like a pack of cards.
You’d think these HNWI would be chipping away at 1.6p but appears not ??
Hey, steady on FF, you'll have Big Cheesy thinking I'm you as well as JoeBloggs!
Neil, you're a businessman.
The person who holds all the cards is the one with least to lose.
Ciz lose EVERYTHING with no deal. Yes they have IP , patents etc..
But they essentially start from scratch with a business plan.
BIO/Behnke : if it doesn't work for them they still walk away very rich people with successful businesses. Onwards and upwards to their next venture.
I'm not saying they don't want it, I'm just saying it's quite apparent who holds the cards here.
“Further work” is to say the least a broad spectrum and could result in nothing to substantial. I just don’t think it will play out re “We’ve identified an improvement so here’s the money”.
Bio is more of a vehicle / a shell imo purely designed to ring fence Investment vs Risk and then control Reward. This being a more efficient way to get to Market. Relationships are vital and you couldn’t wish for much better here with Corepath and now Bill.
My concern is that as Techt says / we may have to concede too much at each stage of Progress if it gets to a binding Contract (which both Parties want) ie : The MoU already concedes Reward if the Test is successful vs the 10 or 15% on Sales previously Agreed. Now it’s $1m every 15 month. So evidence already that ground has been conceded.
Still I would be happy if it gets to completion because some 400 million humans in USA and Canada and IF the Test becomes integral to Lung Cancer Screening / then there’s some 8 Billion humans left / only then we would have a proven concept.
So you would think that Bio would want a Share of the rest of the World and rightly so. But this could provide Cizz with wriggle room on our side of the Negotiating Table..
Still be nice to know the $100k in the Bank. Coming up on 6 weeks now..
Techtonic,
I can agree with you on some of your post, but i don't agree BIO are holding all the cards. Yes there may be amendments, clauses etc. as there always are in any agreement. - BUT -
Look at it from the other side of the coin.
It could be argued that CIZ hold all the cards. Why? Because without CIZ's technology, involvement, etc. BIO is nothing. The company was set up specifically as a vehicle to get our product to market. If Bill Behnke didn't see that there is a huge potential here, he could have simply carried on with the agreement that he was responsible for the marketing of the test and only being paid on a sales results basis, which is what his original agreement with CIZ was. So something significant has made him think he wants more than a salesman's job, and why his group are already developing further relationships.
and, why would BIO support CIZ in further work in UK?
Neil
My take on it FF is that you can’t enter into a MOU without another party, so, by definition, it’s a signed agreement. Your further question - will there be further dilution and accretion of share price ?
If the MOU become a hard Contract with BIO there are bound to be many clauses and caveats along the lines of “If the test doesn’t reach X sensitivity in Y time with Z funds, then party has the right to end / modify agreement etc. If BIO cannot secure X interested parties (hospitals etc) it retains the right to end agreement etc etc.
And , ultimately, if BIO - or any part of that - pulls the plug and breaches contract, where does that leave CIZ? 5 years at International Arbitration, costly US Courts? No chance.
That’s why BIO all the cards. Ciz’ entire Raison D’etre is this test. It’s the sole reason fro being. The US side are already very high wealth people regardless of this deal, and Corepath a successful business - although I’m sure they would all love it to succeed from an ethical and financial perspective.
FF
I would think so at some point yes.
Once the test is in the market, then we take the royalties from any sales generated, but also on the sales of the Mabs/reagents supplied in the course of China deal. when that gets into production.(Not sure how the resultant sales of the Mabs / reagents would affect any other income from USA as the structure of the deal has changed given BIO's involvement)
Important to note though, that the BIO MOU only covers North America/Canada. That leaves an awful lot of other markets to exploit, either directly, or via licensing deals.
BOD on minimum salaries, taking shares instead of pay rises, are good indicators to me, so once we gain traction with the initial kit, this should become a self funding model. Obviously i don't know what other projects the BOD have in the pipeline, (apart from the ones iv'e mentioned previously, and the LFT, ) but at this point, i can't see a requirement for further dilution (small as it has been so far to be fair) unless the BOD have something else up their sleeve and require funding for something outside of the core business, but even then, this would/should be a further revenue stream.
Neil
Neil / my point being is can we get to a place where Dilution ends. Or at the very least where by any future Share Raise becomes accretive - which in itself is always subjective. So I shall go for the former. Can we get to a place where Dilution ends ? Certainly the BoD have always looked to minimise this imo.
I know for certain that my buy earlier this morning is showing as a sell
FF
Should more than cover our cash burn since BIO will pick up the bill for development/clinical trial etc, so taht saveus in teh region of 500k.
Also, there are the proceeds of the placing to take into account - (circa 600k after fees., )
Neil
$300 not $309. Typo.
Thank you for input Neil. Hopefully I am wrong but the RNS is worded such that there is an element of doubt and this can be remedied only by Notification that $100k in the bank of Ciz. Hopefully it is as we speak !!
Re the $100k I expect this will merely cover our own Legal Fees if Binding Agreement occurs.
Re the $309k and then $1m every 15th anniversary / Neil would you expect this to cover our current cash burn ? Yes ? Allow room to accelerate some development on other Cancers ??
FF
In my opinion, you are wrong.
look at any other MOU's we have signed. None of them state that the other party(s) have signed,
Examples:
RNS 22/06/23
RNS 03/02/22
RNS 23/11/22
As has been pointed out, you can only sign an agreement / MOU / HOT, etc with a least one third party.
By default then, BIO have signed, being the third party. It may be more than one party, as Corepath are part of the consortium., depending on how BIO structures the company.
Also, if you read the last 3 lines of your post a couple of times, you will see that you have kind o answered your own question.
Neil