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Started: ShareSocUK, 22 Nov 2020 11:51
Last post: ShareSocUK, 22 Nov 2020 11:51
ShareSoc Launches Woodford Campaign https://sharesoc.org/campaigns/woodford-campaign/
The first update of the campaign and our primary objectives can be seen here: https://sharesoc.org/sharesoc-news/sharesoc-launches-woodford-campaign/
Started: mk200, 17 Dec 2019 23:08
Last post: mk200, 17 Dec 2019 23:08
I thought we are having a break from your depressing opinion , why don't stop for a few weeks and leave us to make our decision!
Started: Uncle_Doug, 20 Nov 2019 16:31
Last post: ItsToast, 17 Dec 2019 13:02
It would seem the only reason its up is that there are enough delusional people like you that believe that a change of ticker name means the underlying fundamentals have changed and are buying.
Let see if this holds or is another temporary blip as what happened when it was announced Shriders were taking control. Up 10 in a few days and then back down to where it started over the next week or two.
And I stand by my point, if you think they really replaced all the garbage unsellable shares in a few days, you are delusional. Do you really believe they sold IH? BenAI? etc?
SP now 35.3p but ticker code is now "SUPP". Up 22% since ItsToast called me delusional.
SP up 12% since you called me delusional ItsToast
Doug, if you really think "the dead wood has been weeded out" you are, and i choose the word carefully, delusional.
They haven't even had time to get rid of a few twigs and no one wants the trunk as its rotten.
I like your positivety Uncle Doug.
But there's no way the dead wood has been weeded out.
Not by a long chalk, imo.
But GL anyway.
Started: strudel, 15 Dec 2019 09:32
Last post: strudel, 15 Dec 2019 09:32
.....pls continue your rants about mid 50 book values, sub 30 share price and, according to that Friday RNS Schroders getting 15% of any gain above 77p, under the new ticker SUPP.
I'll be there, probably still fuming quietly as I read the posts. I only sold half my holding at 85p taking a painful 15% loss. Wish I'd dumped the whole lot. hindsight.
So many classic quotes..
Everything has value, Benjamin Graham and the thrown away cigar with a couple of more puffs. There are reasons not to buy which is why people aren't. Schroders will be more than happy to down grade the investments, and blame Woodford. In this scenario there is very likely to to over selling and undervaluation. But picking the bottom is abit like picking a top... Not possible you have to start to step in and have b..ls of steel.
Though I have done this before the decision point is never easy. Experience tells me there isnt quite blood on the streets and there will be even more of capitulation yet.
YOU need to understand that the NAV is a fictitious number made up by Link. Every day there's a new disclosure and something is downrated or more dirt comes out and the "NAV" drops again. - mavic has now had its accounts not agreed for FOUR years in a row by the auditors, so who knows how much thats worth, could easily be nothing
IH is currently valued at something, which is clearly a lie. And so it goes on. If you invest in this on the basis of the NAV you are a mug.
SP down but NAV up.
at these discounts its on to keep watching... and maybe start buying.
Started: 5eightsaccount, 26 Nov 2019 12:30
Last post: 5eightsaccount, 26 Nov 2019 12:30
Is the next target with a fall through this level down to 20p.
Nice.
Started: 5eightsaccount, 19 Nov 2019 19:22
Last post: 5eightsaccount, 19 Nov 2019 19:22
..is looking good now 30p has been broken on the downside.
Can only be a matter of time as I have said many times previously that once this becomes and AIM stock expect a single digit share price.
As for NAV, that's the biggest joke !
Started: Tobin, 15 Nov 2019 15:09
Last post: anon3, 18 Nov 2019 21:57
Tobin,
This has been estimated to have a true NAV of around 5p on a certain website.
I think that's overly harsh and see the proper NAV as around 25- 30p, but it's a guess.
Whatever, do not believe for one minute that this is trading at a discount, imho and be very careful.
"The Discount looks very attractive"
The discount to a fictional asset value? Seriously?
Discounts you'll see on most ITs are to a NAV that can be objectively measured by looking at the value of the underlying investments.
With WPCT, there's nothing but opinion about value, not facts, from a company with a staggeringly and proven bad ability to measure valuation. Valuations routinely rise and fall by a few hundred million or a billion at a stroke with little facts behind them.
Interesting that you have had success with turnarounds before. But every situation is different. What makes you think this will go up besides Schroders taking over? It seems like the portfolio is heavily reliant on a handful of companies for success. Really engrossing subject this one. Cheers
Im going to reply to myself .. it sound like there are still significant cross holdings with WEI. The NAV may go down more..
https://portfolio-adviser.com/projected-woodford-fund-losses-spell-trouble-for-wpct/
But how much is this priced in?/
One to watch if only for the learning experience...
The Discount looks very attractive. I have seen Investment trusts move to near 50% discounts on a couple of occasions and sometimes its is because the assets are over priced, but often it is because of over selling of a sector and fear sets in.
A couple of times I have bought at this sort of discount .. Russia IT, years ago and Pantheon International in 2008-9, that both did well, and Pantheon I still hold.
The NAV keeps getting written down still. Is this because there continues to be re-rating of holdings, or is it a double sell effect that shares associated with woodford are becoming no go areas?
If we are getting to the pointed of 50% discounts on already over sold shares the bounce could be very significant.
I have seen it before, and done well out of it; but contrarian investing is very hard on the sleep...
Started: 5eightsaccount, 6 Nov 2019 07:21
Last post: ODONNELL, 7 Nov 2019 11:10
But of course the way under priced FFWD which we add to weekly and still mid 8ps may be a better bet.
Actually you are not far out with this statement. We only have a few left in this fund and may them and add to the SLS, ASL SCP.
"Schroders will turn this around"
Why not buy the Shroders small cap UK fund then? Decent performance and you wont have to wait you'll get immediate results, with no need to wait for more bad news here.Because its clear there's no good news (although 80p in the Pound on current biotech stocks is a pretty good deal but that knocks maybe 10-15% off the current (overstated) NAV.
Schroders will turn this around
…….'Its only a matter of time........before this becomes an AIM stock.
And we all know what happens to stocks when they get listed over there !!'
Looking to have a punt here when its down in single digits.
There you are Uncle and Anon , NAV gone UP 0.13p tonight from this mornings value, we,re in the money we,re in the money. lol Thank Goodness for FFWD, that has gone from 6p last week to 8p tonight to bail us out.
Started: Uncle_Doug, 5 Nov 2019 13:02
Last post: ItsToast, 5 Nov 2019 15:19
"Once they weed out all the dead wood this will fly."
Why think the dead wood will be weeded out? What they will sell be be the companies that have good prospects because why would anyone buy the dead wood "thats holding it back"? Who would buy it if its junk?
Much more likely they will instead be left with unsellable and cash, eg starting again. Its already in the news they are selling off most of the biotech (but not BenAI, eg "dead wood"
Would you buy IH?
If it will fly when the dead wood is all gone, wouldnt it be simpler to buy that from WPCT, put that into an existing or new Schroder fund, and shut the rest down?
That'll probably be another 20p off the NAV by then.
You're a braver man than me.
Just be patient. Once they weed out all the dead wood this will fly.
We are hoping that the selling is over done here and as we only a small investment in it and with the stock in an ISA we are just letting it run. If there is a turnaround with the new people then we will add again this ISA year if the ISA is not full.
We also have a small holding in SMT which we consider to be able to "plod" on nicely .
Started: ODONNELL, 4 Nov 2019 12:02
Last post: ODONNELL, 4 Nov 2019 12:02
We certainly made an error buying in here. it is only 2.6% of our portfolio thank goodness . While FFWD is 12% We expect to add to other ITs, Namely TRG, BRFI BGS, FJV, IIT, PHI and a gamble on AAM Another AIM that has dropped a lot so just a small investment here.
We do keep telling ourselves that you only have to have one AIM company to take off and other losses are more than compensated for. Lets hope we have one that actually takes off.
The quicker Woodford has gone the better, we will all be better off with a new trusted name for the trust.
Started: Hmmm..., 4 Nov 2019 10:03
Last post: anon3, 4 Nov 2019 11:42
Puzzling?
Yes, I guess that's one word for it.
Some might think it should be called fraudulant.
Of course, I couldn't possibly comment.
Not sure I understand today's sell off. Everyone knows the value of IH is zero - or is the sell off because the the new team are stupid enough to leave ANY value remaining for the 'investment'?
The initial funding into IH (and subsequent revaluation...) is possibly the most puzzling investment I have ever seen - and by a multi-billion fund management company.....Made after a trip to review operations at some start-up cannabis companies in Canada perhaps???
A further write down of IH doesn’t change anything here, surely everyone has it valued at zero already. Why didn’t LFS write it down to zero in one go ?? Well I suspect they felt it would be an obvious admission that they shouldn’t have written it up in the first place - a series of progressive write-downs for different reasons might look like a gradual change in circumstances. I suspect that’s the plan but I very much doubt they are fooling anyone - apart from the regulator....
Otherwise, if it’s not zero already it will be soon.
I’m pretty sure the write up of the other asset will be justifiable - if it has subsequently funded then they can reasonably use that price to value it now (subject to normal rules) and LFS will no longer be influenced by Woodford - they will be more concerned by rebuilding their battered reputation.
Started: strudel, 4 Nov 2019 07:26
Last post: strudel, 4 Nov 2019 08:04
Seems a share price for IH is to be found in Shergar's nose bag..... the internet took me to CityWire info from 5 months ago.
I now wonder if 5p is equal to a 100% write off.
Re Industrial Heat-
Woodford was apparently suckered into buying into IH and then he revalued his holding by +350 % in Sept 2018.
No evidence of any research facilities, research results etc for IH to justify that revaluation or any subsequent valuation put on IH.
Those responsible for the wpct RNS of 21.9.18 should be held to account as the increase in NAV lured investors with the apparent bargain SP discount to NAV
Skeletons and cupboards leap to mind. Lopping 5p off the value of Industrial Heat, tweaking another holding up so overall asset value is 4 3p less. More than 10% of our current market value.
Any one care to advise me what 5p off IH's value is in percentage terms?
Wonder why they don't kitchen sink it and haul out all the duds in one RNS? There could be many more mornings like this whilst Schroders rummage through these holdings.
Last post: ItsToast, 28 Oct 2019 18:41
I dont blame you. No doubt though you would have said the same about Woodford 3,2,1 years ago?
Or even a month ago (otherwise you'd have sold up?)
I wish you all the best, i have no dog in this hunt, whether it goes up or down wont affect my pocket.
It seems to be a day traders playground at the moment though. Very unpredictable.
would have given this good consideration before making their decision. I have more confidence in their decision than the opinion of Its Toast
Started: peggycilla911, 24 Oct 2019 18:34
Last post: Juxtaposition, 28 Oct 2019 10:25
zzzzzz - what a lot of waffe, toast; full of ifs buts and maybees, and then you categorically state "When Schroders revalue theres [sic] a big shock coming that's for sure". You simply cannot make statements like that and be correct at this time. You do not know and nor do I. You are making yourself look silly.
"Schroders know what they are doing"
Well, true, they have a small cap UK fund which has a good performance. Already presumably full of good companies, and with a believable NAV. So, why wouldn't you sell WPCT and buy the Schroder equivalent rather than wait for all the garbage in WPCT to be dealt with?
Sure, the NAV of WPCT *might* be worth more than its current price - but then again maybe its worth substantially less. When Shroders revalue theres certainly going to be a big shock coming thats for sure, so if you hold you'd better hope its well above the current price (not NAV). Flip of a coin you might say. I'd say they will be harsh so they can get an upside later. Harsh coudl easily be lower than current price.
Depends if you are an investor or a gambler i suppose. Good luck whatever you do.
"and they couldn't possibly buy at the same price of their relevant NAVs anyway."
To clarify, I mean they'd have to buy at the massively over-priced NAV, which goes back to my perpetuating point or put money in at much more reasonable prices, which will see the companies written down massively.
peggy, there probably are a few positives.
But don't you believe the likes of IH are worth little or nothing?
Or Versaeon and Benevelent AI are struggling?
If not, fair enough, it's your choice.
But Scroders will have to continue to pile money in if they think they're good companies.
And I don't see that happening, because the money isn't there and they couldn't possibly buy at the same price of their relevant NAVs anyway.
And that's before the bank covenants.
Their reputation means they have to get this right and come clean, imo.
Oh, I wasn't here for a couple of hundred quid either.
I put serious money in here, very early on, with the view to it being a long term investment in my SIPP.
I got seriously burned and pulled out, because I listened to what was being said.
I then entered again and got burned again, because of the massive underperformance.
Then I realised the truth, simple, in that Woodford was frankly lying, imo. I wouldn't go so far as to say he was doing it to benefit himself, but the fact that he did is convenient.
Not everyone who thinks this trust is an utter dog is a trader and to insinuate that is poor.
I cant believe Schroders would take this over and then watch people bail out, surely a company of there standing would not get involved if that was the case,
A reputation takes a lifetime to build and a few seconds to destroy.
I am sure if you are in this for the longer term you will be okay here, Schroders know what they are doing and they must see positives in the trust otherwise why bother.
The small time traders on here (quick £200 ) will no doubt have othere views as always.
Started: mytton, 25 Oct 2019 17:23
Last post: ItsToast, 27 Oct 2019 22:56
ODONNELL, I suggest sell one share and buy a keyboard that isn't stuck in CAPS
OD, agree with you that Schroder will steady the boat but can you clarify the final sentence of your post so that we understand its meaning. Thanks.
THANK YOU.
HAVE ADDED A FEW MORE TO OUR HOLDING, (150% OF OUR CURRENT HOLDING) BUT PERHAPS OUR OLD AGE HAS MADE US GO-GA OR WE MAY BE LUCKY AND GET NEAR OUR AVERAGE COST WHICH IS WELL BELOW THE SO CALLED NAV. SCHRODERS MAY NOT BE AGGRESSIVE BUT PERHAPS EVEN HAVING THEM GET THE BOAT STEADY WOULD BE GOOD. WE WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF ADDING TO OUR FFWD HOLDING PROBABLY, WE MAY WELL DO THAT NEXT MONTH BUT NO MORE ON WPCT.
APPROACHING 80 WE WILL BE APPROACHING 90 BEFORE WE SEE A PROFIT ?
New ticker -
WTF
Last post: ODONNELL, 25 Oct 2019 15:55
They still have the old stock, however they may get new investors by buying better quality and using their name and contacts once it is under their name. Then eventually the stock will rise under the Schroders name. Do we know what the new ticker will be?
Started: Wolfhall, 24 Oct 2019 23:12
Last post: MartyPoppins, 25 Oct 2019 14:20
What an appalling year for long term investers - both SXX and WPCT in tatters. Better stick to AIM O&G exploration companies, it seems.....
Great News-only 63p down after 4-5yrs investment in PC with the Great Woodford.
Started: micgill, 24 Oct 2019 14:48
Last post: anon3, 24 Oct 2019 18:21
That old saying rings very true, imo;
You can't polish a t*rd.
I'd agree that we'll probably see a NAV re-rate, as Schroders tell it as is is, clear the dross and start again on a better footing.
It's going to have to hurt before it gets better, imo.
Otherwise, they'll just be perpetuating the rubbish that Woodford was trying to sell.
I'd definitely be looking to bail for now and see how it goes.
its good news there is a new manager BUT its the same old 'assets' that have to be sold/given away to allow the new lads some liquid to buy better quality and its no secret that a lot of the existing securities are illiquid!! maybe better to wait for Schroders first NAV calculation before diving in? GLA DYOR everything is IMO
Started: Uncle_Doug, 24 Oct 2019 10:48
Last post: Uncle_Doug, 24 Oct 2019 10:48
Just doubled up on the positive vibes. Good to see some sense returning to the SP. Dead cats don't tend to bounce this high. Any comments from ItsToast?
Started: Turnpan, 24 Oct 2019 08:12
Last post: kitkateat , 24 Oct 2019 10:28
they wouldnt have touched it if they didnt think they could turn it around
Time for the shorts to exit I think...
Maybe but they wouldn’t have taken it on and set the High Water Mark (the point at which they can earn a performance fee) @ 77p unless they thought that was achievable. This news should put a solid floor under the share price even if the NAV still has some drops to come when Schroders looks at the individual valuations. It will be interesting to see what they do with IH - immediate write down to zero ?
Schroders will then declare what a stinking mess the fund is !
yes and terms of appointment re remuneration are interesting.