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lootgaloot, reference the market activity on AIM. The penultimate paragraph of your early morning post reveals a misinterpretation of what has been suggested. I didn't say that the INFA sp may have been "walked down to a fraction of its true value over an extended period" just that it had been manipulated from time to time. And that manipulation was not the sole activity of MMs.
But to comment upon the activity of MMs on AIM, (which was a more specific part of the dialogue), they are obliged to attempt to make a market in the shares they deal in. But the risk they undertake is negligible. Firstly the number of shares they hold in any AIM company at any given time is very low indeed. They buy in shares for which they already have a purchaser and they profit from both sides of the transaction. Not much risk there! Part of their undoubted skill is to hold the minimum quantity of shares. Have a look at Level 2.
Of course there are rules on AIM but they are poorly observed and hardly implemented. It would be akin to the referee in your football analogy knowing the rules but not bothering to enforce them. And so it goes!
Thanks for your input and that's mine. I'm not a tutorial poster.
They probably missed the RNS deadline for disclosures but this explains the large sells and depressed share price as obviously quite a few people knew what was going on. Who is going to expose the terms or wait on the RNS?
https://twitter.com/leesadee_imagee/status/1193076393103503360?s=21
Hi All.I'm a First time poster, but I've been following and invested in a small way since the boardroom coup. A lot of investors complain that their " buys are showing as sells". Forgive the nieve question but aren't all buys sells as well? Shouldn't they show as buys and sells? Thanks
Let's get fabricating ;)))
Everyone's friend lisa.....
That's surely enough of the horror stories thanks..........my money (literally AND earnestly) is on JW and Arun.
This WILL be a resoundingly successful company and I am proud to be standing full square behind our dynamic duo.
They have ALREADY defied sceptics and performed miracles and IMO will continue to do so. They have been astounding in the face of much trial and tribulation and nothing short of heroic (in the classical sense) in their breathtakingly bold moves. You have to speculate to accumulate and obviously no risk no reward........yes the risks here are/have been very high, but the potential rewards are staggering.
Lets give them our unwavering support and thanks for steering through these choppy waters........for my part...."many thanks to the Board and everyone else that have given their absolute all on our behalf, such as Judith who has worked wonders in the background. I am 100% convinced that your herculean work will pay off and everything will slot into place very shortly.........keep your peckers up.....the darkest hour is just before the dawn!"
From Leesadee on Twitter...
I believe the asset purchase agreement to purchase Harland & Wolff was signed last night. Delighted for the workers & the job security this provides
I'm not a MM, I don't know any MMs and I don't work in the financial industry. So I cannot claim to be an expert. As I admitted in my post, I'm sure such fun and games do occur. It may have come across that I am a believer in the 'efficient market theory'. This is not the case, I know that human nature and human greed play a role.
We all have our way of understanding the world, perhaps it’s because of my background in physical science (Chemistry) that I see the world as rules based.
In fact a better analogy would be as a game of football. Each player will try to cheat/dive/gain an unfair advantage and may sometimes succeed. However, each player is also constrained within the rules of the game. If it were a ‘free for all’ the game would very quickly descend into chaos.
I cannot believe any system (whether it is a chemical reaction, a game of football or the financial markets) can remain stable without rules or constraints acting upon its participants. Abuses may occur in isolation or over short periods but for a MM to walk down a share price to a fraction of its true value over an extended period of time?
Si_Derman, yes, I’ve seen it many times. The most enthusiastic rampers are often the first to bail out.
Islandmagee is a great project, I fear JW has been over ambitious and it will prove to be an expensive lesson learnt. H&W present an opportunity but ar what cost.
Fairy Nuff, Loot. But , in hindsight, those that knew, knew. And made a speedy exit.
Whilst saying the opposite on the boards.
Sorry. Disagree fully. More stealthy games than Hamlets on a Saturday. More crooked than Griselda’s nose. No siree.
It’s not at all kosher. Hope you don’t find out. My dwgree in economicsxand post -grad in investing were all just crumbs in the cake.Balanced market is bo******s. No disrespect. Just untrue.
( And only a very few mm’s go down boozer ..really ....most can’t wait to leave the City asap ! !But that’s just me being picky and pedantic even if that’s totally true too !) I wish I hadn’t studied and learned academic finance ..maybe I wouldn’t have got caught up in it . It’s not like the text books say . Neither are the Mm’s.
Setanta’s assertions hold much potential water. Market is not “ self-balancing”..
It is a falsity with respect to believe so. I had to unbelieve it over a span of 42 years.
I’ve never fully bought into the “market makers playing games” trope. The MM function is to create a market, they make their profit on the spread; the difference between the ‘bid’ and ‘ask’ price. It’s a pretty sweet deal and you can make a tidy profit by operating conservatively. Why take the risk of pushing the price somewhere if the ‘market’ doesn’t agree?
Greed! I hear you say.
Well OK, but with greed comes risk. The MM can try to work the share price down to an artificially low level but they are taking a huge punt. They effectively become a speculator. Drop the price and you risk having to sell your shares at a low price to investors who recognise the true value of the share. Suddenly the MM finds itself low on shares but still with the obligation to create a market. It has no choice but to buy back the shares it sold cheaply but at a higher price. Why take the risk?
It makes sense to me that the MM would prefer zero risk while also taking a nice tidy profit on the spread. The big money comes when millions of transactions are executed per second. It is more lucrative for the MM to create a high volume of transactions. Price distortion will only reduce the number of transactions while taking on unnecessary risk.
In fact the MM isn’t completely immune from risk. Every time it changes the bid and ask price it has to push its luck a little. You could call it price discovery. The art is to keep that risk to a minimum while still making your profit on the spread.
OK, I’m not completely naive. I realise that come 4:30pm everyone clocks off and meets up in the boozer after work. MMs have a few drinks with the traders while rubbing shoulders with journalists. A few nods and winks are exchanged and I agree; it is possible for market insiders to act in concert to manipulate a share price and the MM is a very important actor in such a band of thieves.
But I stand by my assertion that any price manipulation is to swim against the tide of where the ‘market’ determines the price should be. This is my two cents or as BlairPeach said much more succinctly… “An 85% fall in 2019 purely due to manipulation?”
It’s the ‘collapse’ bit I don’t like to hear.
Caveat emptor but I wish I was a little more thick-skinned. Happy to get my money back :-/
Thanks for post Set. and you may just be right re. manipulators. No Tr1nor RNS yet.
On verra.Mal sehen.( we’ll see).
There was a major manipulation in Feb/Mar but I am referring to the latest fall in the SP. I believe that that is mainly due to manipulation and MM activity.The pattern of the selling alone tells a story.
INFA is at a crucial and very delicate stage and remember that it is a tiny company proposing to raise £.5B in investment. A staggering ask for an AIM minnow. Your investment here will either collapse or make you multiples of what you have invested.
Govt? Govt. does not care a jot. I have been involved in politics all my life. Ex party member. Left as couldn’t put up with the ignorance.They appoint the toothless FSA and PRA who do nothing except get paid for doing nothing. They are supposed to oversee fairness. The City is utterly corrupt and the government knows it but changes nothing as it makes them revenue.
I am consisteny involved in trying to get ministees to address things. Most of them are arrogant and lazy individuals who care little. Some are not of course. Shorting is banned in some European countries. It skews markets. Never happen here. My MP was the only one to turn up to the VW ministry debate.
We are stuck with AIM.
The Ombudsman is brilliant and I recommend. but nothing to do with markets unfortunately.
The LSE is a casino because the govt. do not care. Period.
Please excuse long tract/ woffle.
Interesting opinions on many areas. I still would have preferred Islandmagee done and dusted first. Good business does not over-risk itself and factors in potential for things going wrong. Many businesses ( especially including the business of Government !!) do not do this and suffer accordingly. Prudence as Gordon Brown famously quoted as Chancellor ( before he screwed up as PM). But it is as it is and Infa is suffering accordingly. I too bought at over a penny.....after the takeover. Showed my lack of prudence.
No RNS today.
Maybe one Monday.
Maybe not.But Strongly feasible IMO.
Fundraising? No idea.
Manipulators? No idea.
Mm’s involved in games? Without shred of a doubt I say.
The buy/sell is sometimes intentional bymm’s and often not. They will do it to obscure the truth for own reasons yes. But the computer does it automatically between bid/offer too.They also shove trades onto NEX in order to hide them. Very very often.
I have learned a whole kaleidoscope of tricks and devious manipulations bymm’s. Not just in AIM. And no...I’m not a conspiracist. I’m very much a maverick and even anti-establishment ...but I know the hard way how nasty and sneaky they can be. Money talks. Not morality.
No idea for sure what drop is about myself. My other share is on a 70% loss and that was massaged down a treat.
The company do not understand how AIM works. I think I do and I think they ought to but refuse to. Here? I don’t know if JW knows how deviously the AIM market can be played ( and even cleverly shorted by private gaggles at times. ) I hope he does.
All a bit of a mystery to me right now. 0.55 to 0.33 in a month (?)
An 85% fall in 2019 purely due to manipulation?
OK...
Thanks for your response MR. Triumph. Yes I do remember those halcyon days earlier this year when the INFA SP was rising, but the most spectacular part of the rise was as the Twitterati and their pals got involved. I also remember Dawski buying at 1.2p, ( hope I may mention that Dawski), after the 1.2p placing because he couldn't believe it could fall any lower. Hard to believe at .34p today ! One has to ask where did it all go wrong ! Our BOD must be as astonished as I am because JW is at a loss on his investment too, and months ago he was voicing his amazement at how low the SP had fallen.
I've already said that I think the latest fall is being manipulated so one doesn't know where it will end. My opinion is that it will only be halted by unequivocal good news, ( we all know what the plus points will be and you have named them frequently enough MR.T so I have no need to repeat them).
I am certainly brassed off at seeing my investment here falling by £10'sK every week but I feel just as disappointed for Nobby who apparently has his Pension Pot lodged here. At least I haven't got that kind of problem.
Lastly, Speedy the MM's have no problem whatsoever in accurately designating buys and sells. They just don't choose to do so as it makes their money making task that much easier. AIM is very poorly regulated and it takes years to begin to understand the range of shady methods for dealing by BOD's ( mind I don't include INFA's in that ),and market makers. But that's what one lets oneself in for by deciding to invest on AIM. And that is why it's so important that companies' BOD's understand just what they are dealing with too.
Speedy- WHAT GOVERNMENT?
Radders. Keeping the faith and standing strong, in spite of what I perceive to be MMs games/manipulation.......nice one!
I cannot understand why, in this digital hi-tech age, it is still not possible to identify buys as buys and sells as sells?! Imagine if our bank accounts worked like AIM MMs!! It's no wonder there is news recently about the sustainability of AIM. Surely the Govt should be addressing this lack of transparency?
FYI - My Top up is showing as a sell
Hi Setanta,
Agree some of the reasons put forward on the board today are fantasy!
JW did have a period late last year and early 2019 where his RNS's did go down well and the sp went on that fine ride, upwards, do you remember when the sp did actually rise!!!
This year however has been tempered with delays and negative news, on the other hand these projects do take time. I would think they are awaiting a piece of the puzzle to slot into place before we can move forward.
I'm reminded by Dawski's comments the other week, choppy seas ahead he forecast, well he got that spot on, did he know something? or had a whisper? he did say that 2020 will be much brighter though!!
Mr T
on this BB today. From imminent fund raising to be revealed after 16.30 , to consolidation, and even to investors selling to finance Black Friday purchases, ( I wonder why they're all in INFA ). Every poster is entitled to his opinion and, for what it's worth mine is that there are speculators here who are testing the waters to see how low they can bring the SP, (with a little help frm some chummy MM's). The selling pattern has been typical of such a scenario for the past few days. Early and late sells But we'll see!
Just one add on. I have never been impressed with JW's nous when it comes to dealing with AIM. Almost all of his interviews and RNS's have had negative consequences as far as the SP is concerned. And I also believe it is very much part of the lead BOD members job to understand AIM so that he/she can protect the shareholders interests. Without shareholders INFA would be dead.
Finally, I agree with crl123, and I would have been much happier if the FID for Islandmagee had been finalised before activity in new projects had been started. I would also like to have seen the new Chairman appointed, (or a good reason given for not making an appointment ), when the six months time scale had elapsed. These slips encourage the hyenas!
Have a good weekend all, Tomorrow is another day.