Member Info for Richard365054

MFGX, I had read that the new Vantage was rushed to the market. Whether this had a bearing on the front end styling I don't really know. AML certainly now have the tools to finesse the Vantage to how it should have been and also address the fussiness of the DB11 rear and the front end of the DBS. The only thing is that styling is always subjective so none of us will totally be happy, whatever they do.

I was thinking that whereas Aston have a trademark grille shape that defines their cars, some other supercar manufacturers do not. Ferrari ooze beauty and style (usually) but don't have a trademark grille. If it's a shape that makes the heartbeat quicker, then it's usually a Ferrari. Porsche have brilliant engineering but no family grille and they're not often designs that make you weak at the knees. Each manufacturer appeals to a slightly different type of person and their stylists need to understand the emotions of their buyers. AML rather lost sight of this and the purity that previously was the hallmark of their designs. I hope the new leadership regains it.

I think it's mostly a matter of perception and it not being a penny share.
RBS did a 10 to 1 consolidation some years ago but it has no material effect on the share price.

Interesting test in Autoexpress between these two SUVs. Bentayga just edges it as Aston has the firmer ride, but then again it will appeal to different buyers and drivers.
Rear end of the Bentayga is one ugly car. Subjective of course.

Interesting comments from Ferrari today.
Orders for V12s running at 15% higher than last year.
Orders running at pre pandemic levels.
CEO says he doesn't think Ferrair will ever go 100% electric.
He doesn't think they'll go 50% in his lifetime- although he is 65 year old.
Ferrari expects earnings at $1.3 Billion, which is at the top of analysts estimates.
Over to you AML.

Cheaper to get Newey across to Aston Martin than buy Red Bull, even if they could be bought. The cost to Aston Martin of seeing Racing Point in the new livery next year is very small. It's quite an achievement as it's probably a comparable figure to a rear wing endplate in a top team.

Remember watching Newey at the Goodwood Revival in 2012. He was racing his own GT40 and lightweight E Type and was very rapid. After a spin early on in his E Type that he shared with Martin Brundle, he won the race as well as setting fastest lap. Very talented although probably benefited from coaching by Vettel at the time. But credit due he can drive.

Valkyrie and Valhallah I believe are both his designs and by all accounts he enjoyed having a free hand with these two vehicles. You can imagine that Vettel would like a collaboration with Newey again. The blown diffusers from his Red Bull days suited him down to the ground, but of course the rules are very different today and the current cars don't have such a planted rear end, one of the reasons Vettel has had so many spins. Is the Red Bull a better balanced car than the Ferrari - who knows.

I wonder if Hamilton would enjoy the challenge to go for a title in a third different car. I'm not so sure he's wanting to hang around for so long. He has interests in other areas and 2022 must seem quite a way off. For 2021 surely the lure of an eighth record breaking title in a virtually unchanged car is too big to change teams and potentially have to battle every race with Verstappen. This would surely be the case in a car other than the Mercedes.

Dunnieboy, yes, I recall that in the 3rd quarter statement. Just a very difficult time for all businesses with new launches and products.

Maybe we're somewhat digging a hole regarding DBX numbers where none needs to be dug. A full order book to end first quarter and iñcoming orders matching production numbers is healthy. I still work on 90 units a week, 3300 on 100 units a week.
Eighteen months ago Lamborghini stated they were quoting 4 months delivery on the Urus and longer if a customer was specifying special colours and trim. The one big downside this year has been closed showrooms, something we're about to experience again. Taken all round the DBX position does look healthy, even with all the knocks the economy is taking.

We're showing our ages here!

3300, I've never wished to own a 911 either, but I am impressed by how Porsche have nurtured and refined it over the years.

MFGX, you're quite right about the term Vantage and where it originally applied. Innes Ireland used to run a DB6 when he penned articles for Autocar magazine. He had the standard 282 BHP engine on triple SUs and really enthused about the car. When he changed it for a then new DBS he specified the triple Weber version with 325bhp, reckoning that the heavier car needed greater power.

Tiff Needel did a lovely Top Gear/5th Gear report on the 007 DBS years ago and came to the same conclusion as yourself, although he reckoned it should have been called the DB9 GT. There was a limited later run version called the GT as you'll well remember. Using the Vantage name for a specific model has taken away a great option for AML. It means they cannot offer a DBX Vantage nor a DB11 Vantage. In a way they've somewhat shot themselves in the foot and it's not something I've considered before.

MFGX, I remember earlier this year Reichman stated that AML were not car stylists, they were design engineers. Palmer stated at the same time that Aston were in the business of delivering dreams. You don't need an O level to see that these comments are not from the same page.

I'm always intrigued to see how a designer encapsulates iconic features and yet move forward with new styling statements. It's always a balance but I do agree with your logic re the Vantage and DBX. The Vantage from the rear and most of it's flanks I wouldn't change. The front has mainly been addressed although I think the lights are still too small and featureless and the side vents just appear stuck on the bodywork as an afterthought. There's no style to the indent that continues and then ceases abruptly in the door panel. Quite some time ago I raised the issue of the DB10s styling which didn't grab me one iota. It was half ****ed from front to rear. Then Ferrari brought out their Roma and you could see immediately where they got the design basis from. It was DB10, but with style.

I've often looked at how Porsche have developed the 911, albeit at one time they tried go replace it with the 928. Their's has been a gradual evolution over the decades and their engineering has been superb. Usually their styling has followed suit as it is a quintessential shape that begs to be left fundamentally alone. Usually they do although the latest model isn't their best.

But it has made me think for a long time that AML have missed a trick. When the DB9 and then the Vantage appeared, they sold in great numbers, partly because the designs were simply beautiful. Watching how Porsche refined their 911 I've always thought that Aston could forever appeal to a broad spectrum of people if they refined the design of the Vantage but retained it's DNA. They instead pretty much started with a clean sheet and forgot how people loved the appearance of an Aston coming towards them. It has been an expensive mistake and the front end revision shows how bad an error Aston originally made. It has contributed to the dire mess they found themselves in earlier this year. Their pricing structure also meant they had to have a resoundly appealing car for it to succeed and they missed the mark with swich gear and infotainment as well as the car's design. The new agreement with Mercedes should fairly quickly resolve the interior issues plus the exterior redesign should position the car where it needed to be two years ago.

I'm pretty much in line with you 3300, although I'm working on 90 units a week and current orders matching production, which is where it needs to be.

Now here is the confusion on DBX numbers. I remember 6 or 8 months ago when unit numbers were being talked about there was something written stating around 400+ would be needed for dealerships and road test reports. Launches are still occuring in far flung countries so AML have needed to position a good chunk of early production with dealers. I'm assuming the the 345 figure relates to customer deliveries.

I've read a few reports and comments regarding last week's phone in and Q and A.

One writer said he was concerned that a number for ordered DBXs was not given. Said if the model was a runaway success then the Directors would be shouting the figures from the rooftops. I beg to disagree on that as it was stated the order book stretched to the end of the first quarter and incoming orders are matching full production. My take on that is 2,000 units currently on order and weekly orders of around 90. A little over 12 months ago Lamborghini were quoting between four and six months depending on spec. Special body and trim colours would put delivery back.

The other comment I read and I've seen this before from one or two sources concerned the fact that Marek Reichman was not at the phone in and because of the flop of the new Vantage and questionable front end of the DBS, he should he replaced - sacked in other words. Undoubtedly, the Vantage has been a huge disappointment and part of that is front end styling. The other part was it's high price. Both these have been addressed, the new pricing applying in the US. Reichman has a predilection for massive grilles that I certainly don't share, but he's not alone when you consider many other car manufacturers. But he's lost some of the grace that AML was renowned for.

The EU are applying steep penalties to manufacturers missing their imposed CO2 targets. This is one of the sticks to get people to move to electric, ignoring all the pollution from mining and processing that battery production entails, plus the 2.5 ton cars that people end up driving around with increased tyre particulate pollution.
Some manufacturers are pooling themselves with other manufacturers that are ahead of the target, such as Ford with Volvo ( which have their Polestar).
I have no idea if small manufacturers get exemptions from these penalties, but wonder what the situation is with AML. Daimler have hybrid systems coming that work in conjunction with their twin turbo V8 which will presumably be fitted across the range of Astons. But in the meantime are Aston about to get some hefty fines and will the new tie up allow Aston to pool themselves with Daimler.

Nella, I remember that. Didn't Daren Turner and Nicki Thiim help themselves to a lovely old car apiece and do figure of eights and out past the sleeping security man.

Thank you 3300. You never rest!!

I suspect DB5 Goldfinger has a while to run before the last one is complete. Now don't they use the old premises at Newport Pagnall for these. Remember calling as a young boy with my dad around 1969 and getting booklets for the DBS and DB6 which I still have. Isn't this where they do all the traditional metal work on customer Astons where the old metal skills are still needed. Likely that this will remain busy way into the future.
There's been no mention of the Speedster, albeit it is only a limited run of 88 models. Plus where will be the build facility for Valkyrie and Valhallah. These total 675 units so it's sizable.

Don't forget the 1,000,000 plus classic cars in enthusiasts' garages, currently not affected by congestion charges if 40 years old. Wonder when that will change?

If you go back to the early 2000s one of the criticisms levelled at AML was that all their cars looked the same. From the front, DB9, Vantage, DBS, Vanquish. A lot of people couldn't tell them apart. I still love the original DB9 and Vantage, but I'm a dinosaur and still massively enjoy the original Mini Cooper S. Oh, and I also prefer analogue instruments, something endlessly classy about them.

Latterly, for the last decade, people have been changing to SUVs. They're easier to get into and afford a better view. How many people drive these on their door handles- not many. The start up costs for AML to enter this market were massive. Rolls Royce and Bentley and Lamborghini did it because they had very rich parents. AML did it on their own which pretty well bankrupted them, but now they have the prettiest (subjective) of high end SUVs. RR and Bentley sell masses of their ugly incarnations, but it's the badge that most people are buying. AML have an equally prestigious badge plus a great looker. Derivatives to follow will only expand the appeal.

Which takes us to their GT/Sports cars and opinions will be divided. Valkyrie and Valhallah are Adrian Newey designs and Vanquish will he an AML in house design, but somewhat more affordable. DB11 is lovely, a little fussy in places whilst the DBS sits there wanting to eat you and that's before it's even moved. I'm not a fan of massive grilles but DBS has to breathe a heck of a lot of fresh air so hands were somewhat tied during the design execution. That doesn't apply to Audis and BMW 4 series. Their grilles have just become hideous and it's not just me saying it. My brother's an Audi convert and he says the same. The Aston Speedster was in house and I'd have one of those in a flash, but I don't have any wealthy relatives about to pop off.

Which brings us to the Vantage. I never liked the front end - it reminded me of a bottom feeding fish. I remember the criticism when I made these comments on this site over 6 months ago and was frequently called some pretty awful names. But they've addressed it and now you can have a more contemporary grille. Other than that, the only criticisms are interior and instrument related and hopefully and it looks to be the case, the new agreement will allow Aston to use current generation Mercedes tech. However, if I was ordering one of these models I'd still specify many of the instruments to be analogue. AML probably wouldn't let me.

AML have an exciting product range and big plans. I wouldn't be invested in them if I didn't think they could be turned around. In the past and not so distant past, their product range was limited and they weren't appealing to new buyers. The launch of the DBX and two hypercars shows they can bring the products to the marketplace where the growing demand is and also for the super wealthy. Their styling won't always please everyone but that's why we have choices.

MFGX, perhaps your opinion on the designs of the Bentayga and Cullinan and why these sell. Certainly isn't their looks. But then again, it's all subjective.