Member Info for ragtrade

JH to be clear they impose the 30% after the order price has been agreed and contract raised, they do this at anytime, beginning really no point supplier would just not make, middle again supplier may cut losses not finish goods, end supplier may may may say i'm not agreeing and not shipping in which case stand off, HOWEVER most of the time it's done to maximum effect so goods have already either left factory or already been delivered and payment is still o/s , in which case they just take it off your invoice and unless have some hold their feet to fire then only other option is probs threatening to take legal action at which point these days Kamani will prob ring you say don't be like that times are tough what can you do for us, very old skool and i'm sure he loves the dealing.

Unfortunately as it's BH the story becomes noteworthy and it starts to gather pace, as i've said it's not uncommon and in past when involved other retailers barely got a mention out of the fashion trade mags,

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/boohoos-imposes-mandatory-reduction-local-8453741

DTN -As a shareholder it will come as no surprise that sitting on 38.5 k shares i'm very much pro BH performing, with recent decisions it concerns me how it will play in longer term given the test repeat model for BH/PLT Turkey is a key source, since times got tough they have reverted back to Manc Trader Personality type, to some extent a good thing to other extents a bad thing, very sweet and sour.

As a manufacturer i wouldn't touch em with a barge pole, profit v risk v manufacturing grief just not worth it, let some other fool have a go.

JH -Day 1 order, lead time average 90 days to ex fty, lots o f variations on this from 1 week to 120 days but standard model 90 days ex fty from day of order. The payment terms start when goods have been confirmed as received by retailers shipping forwarder and all docs hand over, these vary from happy retailer 14 days to unhappy in distress retailers 60 to 120 days depending on the distress!!!

Shipping anything from Turkey 1 week to Bdesh 8 weeks into UK.

Retro's and payment terms can change at anytime but these terms are always changed to maximum effect, so at beginning of season when goods either on water or delivered awaiting payment, so these demands always come with a delivered or undelivered time frame.

Of course if goods have not left fty you always have a right to say sorry i'm not making but they could also be half way through make, retailers always happy to let the odd order fall by the wayside for the bigger picture or to put another way cynically timed to haul in the big catch.

Wasn't gonna do this because i'm sure most are not bothered but as Drapers puts it.

Discount demands are just one item in a whole basket of unfair practices that well-known brands have been accused of imposing on their suppliers. These also include late payment, cancellations, retrospective changes, and failure to pay at all.

Similar unfair purchasing practices were once extremely prevalent in the food retail sector, but with the introduction of the Groceries Code Adjudicator (GCA) in 2013, or supermarket watchdog, to enforce the Groceries Supply Code of Practice, these have been banned.

There’s now a huge discrepancy in payment terms between food and clothing suppliers. Marks & Spencer pay their food suppliers within 19 days, but their clothing suppliers within 90 days; Asda 63 days for food suppliers, 93 days for overseas clothing suppliers; Sainsbury’s 45 days for food suppliers, 75-90 days for clothing, according to data provided by the individual retailers to the Department for Business and Trade. This needs to be urgently addressed.

A proposed Garment Trading Adjudicator, or fashion watchdog, would solve this issue. As with the GCA, it would enforce a code of practice banning harmful purchasing practices, including late payment, changes to pricing previously agreed, and more.

Hope this answers your question.

T4G given the amount of Brands the test repeat model is not for all but for PLT and BH yes 100000 % deffo, it massively reduces mark down, of course speed is essential, to get back in whilst demand is high means there are two countries that come mainly into play for BH, PLT , the UK and yes you've guessed it Turkey !!

t4g it's a fair point re the 30% , i can say for certain that 10% across the board wwide, issue with turkey is that as costs are higher prices are of course higher, presume this is why the discount needed is higher, they are supposed to have 250 suppliers, how many of those are active is unclear, last six months buys have been 100-150pcs of style, this is tiny i mean really tiny, we work with some very high priced brands £150 to £200 retail and even they buy more than 100pcs, so i'd be shocked if they had anywhere near that amount live. i can tell you that 30% is reverberating around the supply chains and you'd have to be a bit desperate fty to sign up to anything at mo.

drapers quotes

one supplier said: "how can turkey match ****stan? it's impossible. it has been extremely tough due to their late payment and discounts demands."

another source said: "how they can treat their 'partners' like this? we are broken by this situation personally and emotionally."

boohoo group declined to comment. a source close to the company said the business is taking a "targeted approach" to its supplier base when cutting costs in its supply chain. it is also understood to be trying to capture deflation in a timely manner in areas where costs are easing.

big piece in drapers about fashion industry needing a watchdog with teeth to protect suppliers, again not just bh many culprits are cited.

hey ho, soon be christmas.

scb you miss the point, i think the strat for doing this is shaky from so many aspects remember this is coming from me, a shareholder and long time member on bh board.

turkey it is key country for supply to uk and europe because it is vertical from cotton, to fabric to make, it's very quick for that reason and ex turkey 1 week max by road.

the currency is shot pieces and and inflation rampant, i have just come off the phone with turkish supplier friend who is in uk, he just told me no one of worth he knows wants to work with bh, you cannot impose 30% discount on a collapsing economy without it having serious consequences for the supplier. prices agreed only to comeback weeks later and say we have changed our mind, to stress again, currency is shot pieces and and inflation rampant.

some on here can of course argue that that a retro and discount extension are breaking esg guidelines but to bh credit i happen to think that bh have done a ton of work on this to drag themselves out of an area that once blighted them.

the retro and extended terms as i've said is not confined to just bh or just the ragtrade, the problem is it signals distress and in bh case it is also changing the way it buys and it will restrict its supply lines, so i think it's bad business practice.

this is more about destroying trust in a very important area of the world and it's supply chain, turkey, by doing this they are limiting their options, someone will always make but you don't just want someone you want people who u/s your business and trust goes both ways, these suppliers have lost trust and as someone who works in asia i and many others have decided our energies are better put elsewhere.

bh keep citing ****stan, worry is that they have no choice, the fact that they are forced to go down a non favoured fashion route is, i just hope they know what they are doing because for the industry its an outlier and suppliers despite what people may think don't just make garments, they also bring innovation to the table as the established ones no that this will also drive their business.

JH i will defend BH on bringing in Levit as a brave move as it does give an independent transparency and results in an agenda for change, which cannot be said for Shein in anyway shape or form.

Sadly BH are no different from others who have enforced retro's or extended terms and of course its not just confined to Fashion, however 30% i believe is an outlier and is crippling for any supplier.

Hate to say it but this needs regulating by Government, if you sold a car to someone and they drove off in it and shouted out the window btw i'm giving you 30% less than we agreed and i'm not paying you now but in couple of months then i think most would running down the road after them trying to grab keys back, however bit like an order that's just shipped it's too late.

SCB i can 10000000% tell you that suppliers did not make hay with rising costs, massive pressure on workers wages and inventory costs that take place day 1 you take an order and you don't get back till in most cases 150 to 170 days later , in meantime many costs have risen, raw materials daily, wages, borrowing rates to finance, currency fluctuations etc etc and when all of a sudden you expect an invoice to be paid and the customer goes errrrrr actually we are not paying for another 60 days and btw you need to reduce by 10 , 20, 30 % then at the very least it leaves a very very very bitter taste but at worst it puts you out of business. Many suppliers cannot now get credit insurance on these companies , so forget rising costs even the debt is not secure, in the past the path that ended up with retailers going bust started with extended credit term enforcement, right out of the blue and then came retro discounts, worst situation is that with private companies like Arcadia you had zero transparency just a feeling that they wouldn't be doing this if all was ok, at least with BH being a quoted company they have duty to report so you can make some sort of judgement call. Like i say from a supplier point of view it's just not worth it with them anymore and there will be a whole raft of factory's around the World not just Turkey that say thanks but no thanks.

Very difficult to u/s if this is applying to all Brands in the Group, one size does not fit all and Turkish suppliers will be extremely wary of doing any order with any of the Brands whatsoever with the current bullet to the head JFDI or else approach , the only ones that won;t care are the ones that are desperate and desperate factories are normally that way for a reason, eg not reliable so will take anything to survive.

Many senior roles now seem to be mothballed, normal structures for buying depts appear to be fractured, allegedly buying floor morale is very low, not sure how it works but i've been told they have switched to country sourcing agents, buyers power reduced, agents running around getting best price, very old school and from a shareholder point of view it is def a concern. I'm hoping it's a stop gap whilst they are trying to control costs till better times return and they re evaluate the costs v structure.

We were invited few months back to overseas Hotel to meet and discuss orders they wanted to place along with other suppliers, as supplier i wouldn't touch this dutch auction way of working with a barge pole.

to one an all on this.

i am a l/t shareholder of boo hoo 38.5k shares bought at various stages.

i am a l/t supplier to uk, europe, australasia fashion markets, have worked out of turkey, china, india, sri lanka, bdesh and philippines.

as a shareholder i am of course conflicted but the way that they continue to demand on going retro discount is a concern, it has in the past been the start of a demise with some company's as the financial stress results in the good ol one trick pony.

as a supplier, i've binned them off and stopped manufacturing for them, you can stomach this if trade is continuous and qtys of each order are meaningful with an acceptable margin. over the last 12 months as they have cut inventory the qty of each order has dwindled significantly, average buy 150pcs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it got to the point where it just wasn't worth the effort. to enforce a 30% discount will result in a loss for any factory, margins are simply not that high, it's just a ploy, each factory will be negotiating this down and bh know this, however with this action they have pretty much wiped out a low duty, quick lead, quality efficient country to work from , the turks take trust and relationships very seriously.

****stan is a low cost, long lead, unreliable, low quality, trick to regulate source.

yet again we say bh this group involves many brands, these can not simply be switched to pstan, however the trust from the suppliers point of view will be very low and very vary, for the likes of km and warehouse this will be a tricky path.

there is plenty more retailer, brands, e tailers around the world that do not behave like this, bh is not a in demand company to make for, 150pcs not worth it.

haven't got time at mo but will update on buying floor on here soon, as massive changes to a very strange way they are now buying.

Finally looks like BH are getting to grips with the Debs offer, the potential was always there but i think they just had too much else going on to really give it some direction.

Retail Gazette article, hopefully it will open, might have already been posted, quite hard to keep up on here!!!

https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2023/05/boohoo-back-to-growth/

Of real interest from the article for me is this, especially given Drapers news y.day re Nautica, see below.

Lyttle says it is “very happy” with Debenhams’ performance “from an investment point of view” as it is already profitable.

It now has “ambitious plans” for the online department store as Lyttle looks to “accelerate” Debenhams with “a focus on premium”.

The group wants to add more brands and more products onto the site as it looks to grow its customer base to capitalise on Debenham’s “huge brand awareness”.

It is currently in discussions with lots of big-name brands about joining the platform which will help “turbo that growth”.

Debenhams.com already has more than 1,600 brands on its website, which Boohoo says is “already way ahead of the number of brands which were on the old Debenhams”.

Nautica Competition, part of the Nautica brand, will also be stocked on Debenhams, now part of Boohoo Group, featuring designs "influenced by competitive sailing with an urban spirit".

Debs going more premium is a very big tick imho.

PP1-Quote There are different views on the fast fashion market and some day it's going to fall because people are becoming more sustainable aware. Who knows?

It will never change, young demo will never change wanting it here and now and should hell freeze over and they do change then Sheins 10 day make deliver (never btw) is defunct, BH Group has a raft of brands across all demo's that have different requirements so BH Groups longevity is actually more assured because they can push a brand to fit the demands and narrative of the day.

BTW if Sheins demo does start to demand more sustainability then it will require transparency, in which case Shein is dead and buried.

PP1 -Fast Fashion means getting the demo 14 - 25 plus ish product they want, on time and de risking mark down, it does not mean throw away fashion which is what a lot of people make the mistake of associating it with.

Fast Fashion demand will never go away in this demo its carved in stone.

IMHO Shein offers throw away fashion from sources not properly inspected to the ETI Base code.

BH Group offers fast fashion, slow fashion, quality fashion and unlike years back this is now as transparent as other UK major fashion players.

PP1-Come on your better than this.

Quote -Shein can do test and repeat much quicker than Boohoo

Soooo Shein can make and deliver quicker than BH on the Branads with the group that this applies this is despite the fact that BH have a factory in Leics ?

Quote -Shein can do test and repeat much quicker than Boohoo

Just a few posts back you said

Quote -"Fast fashion has reached its top and is now downwards." "Everything has its time and fast fashion may have had it from hereon in"

PP1-Explain fast fashion?

Re Shein -Yes a threat (may change if they float and are forced to open pandora's box) but as a supplier for 35 years and still going (a rarity!!) i can tell you the UK Fashion retail offering has been decimated, the last 20 years is littered with bodies, the one thing about BH that tends to get overlooked is the Group, it now has an awful lot of depth, also important is that the family, often seen as a burden holding the groups corporate look back is actually in this sh#t storm a massive asset, they will fight to get this back to where it was tooth, claw and nail, very easy to dismiss them as market traders but they know this game inside out and all the pitfalls that go with it, they do not want to lose control and face, when they do ride off they want it to be to critical acclaim.

Now can you answer my query as to what fast fashion is and whilst your doing it perhaps take into account how you square Shein being a massive threat at the same time as saying and i quote

"Fast fashion has reached its top and is now downwards."

PP1 most if not all sectors of the market are a lot less attractive to investors at some point due 2008 + Covid + War.

Never easy to see foresea a crisis and adjust your portfolio accordingly before you have walked round the bend, we come out of Covid to be hit with massive demand when all switches are off, all of sudden the system cannot cope with the surge and then just when you think supply chains are starting to become fit for purpose a War breaks out !!!!

Different sectors suffer at different times, i think BH is passing through the eye of this very nasty storm, this is key, profit will return, costs in our sector have fallen pretty much every month since Jan, labour (offshore) , raw materials, freight, we do however need growth to return, this is a problem for UK Plc. I have no idea anymore which Government can deliver this, we have carte blanche to behave as we see fit but seem almost too scared to jump into being a Singapore or a Ireland where we attract investment due to fav tax rates, was in Ireland last week first time in 10 years couldn't believe the change, even the cab drivers were happy !!! staggering amount of investment, Truss tried but was cut off at the knees and undermined by the very people continue to miss their own forecast.

Its' not just BH that needs to return to growth but the whole of the UK.

Moneysponge, with all due respect if your better halves are now buying from Primark and Shein as a preferred choice to

BooHoo, Pretty Little Thing, Coast, MissPap, Oasis, Warehouse, Wallis, DP's, Nasty Girl and finally a myriad of Debs Brands then i would politely suggest that they have become less concerning in there taste and for latter conscience, whilst Primark have at least made great strides on ESG they are imho still at the bottom of the pile in terms of quality/trend, as for Shein, i think it's common knowledge that if scratch the surface you will end up balls deep in a whole pile of Sh#t re ESG (specifically on this the sh#t will go up beyond your balls to your neck), Quality, Delivery, Returns issues.

Hopefully when better times return they can persuaded to wrestle with their conscience on Shein and move away from the darkside.

How many of these do you need.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65452976

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-11-21/shein-s-cotton-tied-to-xinjiang-where-china-is-accused-of-forced-labor

https://www.freedomunited.org/news/shein-source-uyghur-cotton/?gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrt6tiOL5_gIVS_NRCh2vaAcEEAMYAiAAEgLT3vD_BwE

T4G , all fabrics are tested by independent testing house eg SGS https://www.sgs.com/en
They must be approved by fabric technologists, they have to meet many standards, seam slippage, tear strength, tensile strength, pilling, etc etc yawn etc, if they don't then factory will not be allowed to cut garments and fabric declared where by it is then taken up by the fabric mill.

Anyway whole message is a bit sound bite ish, buying skip loads yet keeps sending 100% back!

Why does she bother buying skip loads if the quality was shocking, fabrics misdescribed and the fit and sizing the work of no one she could possibly understand.
JFYI i'm not for one minute saying Lady Crowman doesn't fit into this bracket but Asos own label is demo 20 somethings which does also encroach under this and also over a bit.
Boo Hoo demo is perhaps a tad younger but not by much.
Both put a massive amount work into fits as it obvs effects returns rates, altho frustrating for all concerned annoyingly one size doesn't fit all, its deffo more of a problem on jeans, less so dresses, tops and skirts.