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Hi again Fairy1,
Everything else being equal (which of course, with the markets, never is!), the more significant date is the "ex-dividend" date, when one could expect the share price to fall by about the same amount as the dividend. That date has already passed, on 18 Feb 2021.
Payment date is, as you know, 26 Mar 2021.
These dates were announced as part of the company's results, issued on 2 Feb 2021.
The exact dividend amount in Sterling was subsequently announced (on 15 Mar 2021) as 3.7684p per share.
The various "RNS" announcements by BP can be seen here, in date order, here:-
https://www.lse.co.uk/rns/BP./
On actual payment day, the main factor that may affect the share price is to what extent shareholders then reinvest their received dividend money in more BP shares. I'd expect this effect to be less, because it is anticipated by the market, and the dates of reinvestment, whether manually or automatically reinvested, will be spread over different days, including depending on how the various brokers/platforms work.
Regards, Mike.
Fairy1,
Okay, I hope you have success with HL tomorrow - it's a bit of a pain otherwise.
I'm going to "sign off" now before incurring the wrath of others on this BP-specific board!
Yeah, pity about the drink, but thanks for the thought, and let's all drink in our socially-distanced ways to happier times, with COVID, shares in general, and BP!
ATB, Mike.
Hi again Fairy1,
"so I’m panning to sell 20k worth before 6 April,and buy again in an Isa.".
It's worth checking, before you do that, whether your broker/platform does a "Bed & ISA" process. I'm with Interactive Investor, and they do it all in one process. They sell your selected shares outside the ISA, and at exactly the same time, buy the same value of shares back within the ISA. Because it's done almost instantaneously, the market price has no real chance to move in between the selling and the buying. Also, importantly, they only charge one, not 2, commissions. They only charge the commission on the buying, not on the selling first. However, due to the transaction costs (commission, stamp duty and bid/offer spread) you still end up with slightly less shares in the ISA than you started with outside the ISA. In my case, for the particular share I moved (which wasn't BP), I wanted to move my holding of 200 shares (these were shares at about £14 each), and ended up with 198 in the ISA. In my case that wasn't an issue, because I wanted to top-up anyway, which I've now done. It wouldn't be an issue either if you were planning to actively trade the shares once they were in the ISA.
Regards, Mike.
Hi again JG68,
Re first paragraph - thanks, I understand now what you meant by "maxed out" - I think many of us are in that position, with capital tied up in shares that are currently "under water"!
Re final paragraph - to be clear, you don't have to report anything that goes on in your ISA (deals, dividends, etc) on your tax return.
Rgds, Mike.
Hi again Fairy1,
If I'm understanding your question correctly, *in my opinion* how it should work is as follows.
If the shares were in an ISA at the time of the sale, then CGT is irrelevant.
If the shares were not in an ISA at the time of the sale, then as an example:-
Say on 29 Mar 2021 you already had a Section 104 holding (or "pool") of 1,000 BP shares.
Say you sold 400 of them on 30 Mar 2021 at £3-50 a share.
Say you then bought more 600 BP shares on 12 Apr 2021 at £3-00 a share.
The 400 you sold on 30 Mar 2021 have to be matched to some of the 600 you bought on 12 Apr 2021, *not* to some of those in the pre-existing Section 104 pool.
Your gain would then be £200 (obviously all these figures are actually net of dealing costs, etc).
You *would* make a potentially taxable gain. Your £200 gain would have to be added to all your other gains in tax year 2020/2021 to see whether in total you were below or above the threshold of £12,300 for tax year 2020/2021.
Your £200 gain applies to tax year 2020/2021 (when the sale was made), not to tax year 2021/2022 (when the matching later purchase was made).
I hope this is right, but I'm confident someone such as MaryBr190 will jump in and correct if it's not.
Regards, Mike.
Hi Jason, and thanks.
Last question first, unfortunately I don't think you can claim stamp duty directly as an expense, whether outside an ISA or inside an ISA. Of course, it's reflected in the overall cost of the shares that you report, along with any broker/platform fee, so your reported gain (proceeds minus cost) is lower than just the difference in share price would suggest. I'm not a frequent trader, and am relatively new to using a Stocks & Shares ISA, but it seems to me that just as you're not liable to tax on your gains, so you can't claim for your losses. Outside an ISA, you can "register" any overall loss in each tax year, and these losses, once registered, can be carried forward for several years (I can't remember exactly how many) to be used against gains in years where otherwise your overall gains would be above the CGT threshold (currently £12,300, from memory). As you know, each time you buy shares, even if you then sell them again immediately, as well as just the cost of the shares themselves, you have 3 costs which you can't get back: the broker/platform fee (depending on your broker/platform), the stamp duty (0.5% of the value of the shares), and the bid/offer spread (which is relatively tiny with shares such as BP, but much bigger with smaller companies, and also bigger with Investment Trusts, of which I now have a couple).
I'm not sure about your "after 20k you're maxed out" with an ISA. My understanding was that once you've put the max £20k in, you can trade and/or enjoy share-price rises, with the shares that are already in it, as much as you like. If that gets it up to £90k, for example, so be it. What you *can't* do is move new money or new shares into it, once it's up to the fully-subscribed limit. If I've got that wrong, I'm about to find out, because I've only had my new S&S ISA going for a couple of weeks!
All the best, Mike.
Hi 1.Armani,
SSE re-set their dividend (lower), a year or so ago. It's now about 80% of what it used to be.
Talking just from memory, I think their stated dividend policy going into the future is to raise it (from the new, lower base) "by inflation" in the near-term future years. I'd have to re-check, though, as to how recently they last re-iterated this policy.
Rgds, Mike.
Hi again Fairy1 and JG68,
I've re-done my example, which is at the bottom of this post (if it all fits). It's got so complicated that there *might* be numerical errors in it, but hopefully not. Again, prices and numbers are fictional.
In terms of other comments, JG68 asks: "Do you have to report these transactions individually to HMRC on tax return or can you bulk report them after you have done all the calculations you described below?" My answer is I think it's best to list them all individually. That way HMRC can see you're not hiding anything, they can see how you got your answers (so avoiding further queries from them), and if it is wrong you'll get "free" education from them, for future use!
Also, JG68 says: "I think all gains under an ISA are tax free". That's right, all gains once the shares are in an ISA are tax-free, and so are all dividends from those shares. However, even when buying in an ISA, you still pay Stamp Duty (another kind of tax) each time you buy shares. I think that it *is* a good idea to keep a running record for each share as you go along. I do mine in "Excel". Hopefully for the frequent trading you do, online calculators will make life simpler, but I've never tried them myself. I think it's still important to understand the principles of the rules - that way (i) you can "sanity check" what the calculator is doing, and (ii) you can use the rules to your best advantage.
The new example:-
(a) 23 May 2020: Buy 1,000 BP @ £3-00.
(b) 3 Jun 2020: Buy 600 BP @ £4-60.
(c) Section 104 holding is now 1,600 BP at total cost £5,760.
(Average cost per share is £3-60).
(d) 5 Jun 2020: Sell 400 BP @ £5-00 - proceeds £2,000.
Allowable cost for the 400 is (400/1,600) x £5,760 = £1,440. Gain is £560.
(e) Carried-forward Section 104 holding is 1,200 BP at cost of £4,320.
(This is still average cost per share of £3-60).
(f) 18 Jul 2020: Buy 1,800 BP @ £4-40). Cost £7,920.
(g) Carried-forward Section 104 holding is 3,000 BP at cost of £12,240.
(Average cost per share is now £4-08).
(h) 9 Sep 2020: Sell 600 BP @ £4-88 - proceeds £2,928.
(i) 19 Sep 2020: Buy 1,200 BP @ £4-52. Cost £5,424.
The sale on 9 Sep 2020 (h) is matched to some of the shares bought on 19 Sep 2020 (i), because of the 30-day rule.
Allowable cost for the 600 sold is (600/1,200) x £5,424 = £2,712. Gain is £216 (£2,928 - £2,712).
(j) Carried-forward Section 104 holding is 3,600 BP at cost of £14,952 ((g) plus half of (i)).
(Average cost per share is now £4-1533).
All the best, and hope that helps.
Mike.
JG68 and Fairy1,
Sorry, I've been out all afternoon and can now see that I've made a mistake due to trying to do it all too quick. That first number should indeed be £5,700, not £6,600.
I'll re-do it all again this evening - offline this time - and re-post sometime this evening, and I'll look at all the other comments while I'm about it.
Well spotted, and sorry for any confusion.
Cheers,
Mike.
Example below - prices and numbers are fictional.
23 Oct 2020: Buy 1,000 BP @ £3-00.
3 Feb 2021: Buy 600 BP @ £4-50.
Section 104 holding is now 1,600 BP at total cost £6,600.
(Average cost per share is £4-125).
5 Feb 2021: Sell 400 BP @ £5-00 - proceeds £2,000.
Allowable cost for the 400 is (400/1,600) x £6,600 = £1,650. Gain is £350.
Carried-forward Section 104 holding is 1,200 BP at cost of £4,950.
(This is still average cost per share of £4-125).
12 Mar 2021: Buy 1,200 BP @ £4-175). Cost £5,010.
Carried-forward Section 104 holding is 2,400 BP at cost of £9,960.
(Average cost per share is now £4-15).
14 Mar 2021: Sell 600 BP @ £5-00 - proceeds £3,000.
28 Mar 2021: Buy 1,200 BP @ £2-00. Cost £2,400.
The sale on 14 Mar 2021 is matched to the shares bought on 28 Mar 2021, because of the 30-day rule.
Allowable cost for the 600 sold is (600/1,200) x £2,400 = £1,200. Gain is £1,800 (£3,000 - £1,200).
I hope there are no "typos" in the above!
Mike.
Fairy1,
Glad it was of some help - have a good weekend yourself.
notgotaclue2200,
Whilst I appreciate that tax is arguably off-topic for a BP-specific board, I joined "LSE" to (i) LEARN, and (ii) HELP (where I can). People don't need to spend lots of time here, or on Google, looking for this, and risking getting false information. All they need to do is go to the Govt/HMRC website. Govt/HMRC make and implement the rules - you, me, Google, or anyone else, don't.
Mike.
Fairy1,
Provided you've worked out your profit (gain) correctly, if the profit's below £12,300, and you haven't made any profits from any other share sales in the current tax year, then there's no liability to pay any tax. So yes, your £5k is tax-free. If you got proceeds of less than £49,200 from the share sale, you don't even need to declare it in a tax return.
The only thing to bear in mind is the "30-day rule". If you sell the shares now, and buy the same kind of shares back within 30 days, you're in a different situation - all of this is in the HMRC website.
Mike.
eccles04,
This was, however, originally announced (subject to approvals, etc) back in June (2020). The amount they're getting doesn't to me seem very large for the size of business(es) they're selling, but if they're getting rid of a loss-maker, and they're being paid in cash, I guess it's all to the good.
Mike.
Thanks Bertie.
Yes, I've been watching both TRIG and UKW (Greencoat) for a couple of months now and, although there are differences (TRIG has solar, and a bit of storage, whereas UKW is just windfarms, and TRIG has assets not just in the UK), their share price behaviours looked at over 2 or 3 years are remarkably similar. They go in large waves, with very little long-term increase in share price, with the share price gradually going up at the beginning of the wave, then suddenly falling as another fund-raise is announced, then repeat all over again. You get about 5% dividend (depending on exact price you buy), then put money back into it on each fund-raise, which gradually comes back to you again via the dividend, which depending on circumstances (eg whether you have the shares in an ISA) you risk having an income tax (dividend tax) liability on. I bought some UKW today for my ISA, but it could quite as easily have been TRIG. Maybe I'll end up with both, and hope that their price "waves" happen at different times!
All the best, Mike.
Hi Bertiethebarrel,
It probably means "subscription shares", which were your entitlement to subscribe to new shares in the company as it is raising more capital and existing shareholders are being given the opportunity to take part. The entitlement date was apparently 3 March, when you still had your shares.
It's all detailed in their announcement here (but you'll probably need half an hour to read and understand it all!):-
https://www.lse.co.uk/rns/TRIG/publication-of-a-prospectus-and-circular-yfxtwqbjohjr1sx.html
I don't currently have any TRIG shares, so didn't read the announcement in detail, but am considering investing and as a result am following their corporate developments reasonably closely.
Out of interest, and if you don't mind me asking, why did you sell yours?
Rgds, Mike.
Hi ValveMan,
I was "taken over" by ii a few years ago (previously I was with TDW/TDDI for many years) and - so far - have been happy with ii. The charging structure is very clear, corporate actions (such as the recent special dividend and share consolidation by Tesco) seem to be handled efficiently, and dividends are credited promptly (important for future planning of purchases). I'm also just in the throes of setting up my first Shares ISA with them, and that seems to be going to plan. They also do reduced dealing charges for "frequent traders", although I don't come in that category.
I hope that helps, and good luck with whatever you do. Mike.
Windows345,
It's all described in the HMRC document that MaryBR190 provided a link to at 11:25 today further down this "thread". Note - it's 30 days, not 31 days! Presumably you each have your own CGT allowance.
Rgds, Mike.
Timydogy,
On my reading of the "30-day rule", on the transaction on 5 Mar 2021 in your example you have not made a gain in tax year 2020/2021, but a very large loss. The 10,000 shares you sold on 5 March , for proceeds of £19,990, have to be matched against the 10,000 you bought on 21 March, at a total cost of £30,160. So you made a loss of £10,170. If you've already exceeded your CGT allowance for this tax year, unless you've exceeded it by more than £10,170, this loss will eliminate any CGT liability for the year.
If all your other gains for this year totalled less than £10,170 (which presumably *won't* be the case because you say you've already used up your CGT allowance), then overall you'd still have an overall net capital loss for the year which you can claim, and also carry forward for a number of years.
10,000 shares at the *original* cost (£10,060) go forwards as the Section 104 holding, so if/when you sell any shares of X in the future, these are what you'd have to match that sale to.
Regards,
Mike.