Member Info for JohnNth

Hexy...IMO CINE as a shell company is only worth a sausage if it is allowed to keep the tax losses to set off against future profits.

What do you think?

"The restructuring is expected to reduce Cineworld’s holding company’s debt pile by US$4.5bn (£3.5bn)."

This means even after losing all the business, CINE will still be indebted to the creditors, which in turn means any remaining value 'realised' from a shell company will also go towards settling debts, which leaves nothing for shareholders.

CINE is worth zero

“During bankruptcy negotiations the Greidingers pushed to be granted a shareholding in the newly formed entity under management incentive plans through which the new board can be granted equity-based awards. However, the lenders, which include US asset managers such as Invesco and Eaton Vance, refused.”

It was always me, myself and I with the mookster...shareholders never ever featured. He abused Ch 11 left right and centre. Mr Cohen (CINE CFO) would have all knowledge of abuses, so mookster made sure he was rewarded at the end to stop him spilling beans.

"I think it's a strong message to Mooky though - Shareholders are CUSTOMERS too!"

Mook the crook doesn't care/give two hoots if you never go to CINE theatre again as he is been paid off and enjoying sun on the beach in Haifa, Israel.

"The Greidinger, whose family trust owned roughly a fifth of Cineworld, are said to be in line for the vast majority of the cash."

All 4 raking in the cash are based in Israel, leaving shareholders who are largely based in the UK and US high and dry.

Gs...not to mention profits made using/manipulating insider information over past 12 months, having a dip in the till as there is lot of cash floating around the cinemas. To ensure he doesn't spill any beans, the mookster has made sure Mr Cohen (CFO) has been well looked after as well.

Not surprised by the news one bit...I've seen this coming for a while now. The Ch11 was used/abused by mookster & Co to carve out and agree a deal for himself with the creditors. I'm of the opinion there's more to come; I can see the mookster buying up RoW business for next to nothing from creditors, leaving shareholders high and dry.

"I always respected hexam and he was always well respected here when he was putting in the graft for everyone , that unfortunately seems to have stopped which is a shame."

I'll back that and mention Wolfie as well, both scholars of Gradgrind School of Facts, and voices of sanity amongst fools and delusionals.

Just a thought...CINE is a cash business right? I assume lot of people pay cash at the turnstiles ie. pound notes, US$ bills etc. Is all this cash actually making its way into CINE bank accounts, or is the mookster in collaboration with his CFO Mr Cohen getting up to no good? Ch 11 abuses are well documented and often used by management to suit its own agenda.

Https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/636051

Just signed...3862 now.

Wolfie's on the money maidit. IMO there may only be value in CINE shares for the holders once a deal is struck with the creditors who takes all the assets, and CINE (shell company) is then acquired by another company for it's name, utilising of tax losses etc. CINEcannot continue trading as it is bankrupt...full stop.

There's a caveat in that I'm assuming CINE does not lose the company (only the assets) in any restructuring agreed.

Just looked myself in the mirror and wondered; a BEAR turning into a BULL...surely not!

Hex...I have to disagree with you on this. Surely it belongs to current CINE holders as they have incurred the losses. Creditors gets their hands on the assets and carry looses they have incurred with CINE to their new company. Whoever buys the shell company gets to utilise tax losses worth full $478m, equating to about 25p per share.

On page 109 of 2021 audited report

"A deferred tax asset is recognised only to the extent that it is probable that future taxable profits will be available against which the asset can be utilised."

On page 137 of the report, it values deferred tax asset at $416m

For simplicity, if you take tax at 20% which is $83m, equates to potential tax saving of £66m as compared to current CINE capitalisation of £15m. This is as at the end 2021, most likely this has increased since.

I may be way off the mark here but the scarp value of CINE reduced to just a shell company could be worth as much as 4p per share.

Think it needs experts to look at this. Where's Hexam & Wolff Advisory?

I would have thought the tax losses are attached to the current CINE and secured creditors have a lien on CINE assets which they take away from CINE. I am certain there's no clauses in lending t&c which states creditors has ownership rights to the legal entity and any tax losses as that would be too risky for them.

I remain to be convinced on this one. A shell company with tax losses on scale CINE has racked up is worth a lot more than what CINE is worth today. However, the losses I would have thought has to be actually incurred ie. whilst CINE may show losses on paper but it is only recognised for tax purpose if CINE actually pays the creditors. You cannot just walk away from debt and then claim allowances in your company tax returns. Bit too complicated for me, may be someone with tax expertise can shed more light on this.

Saying all that, it doesn't relieve CINE of debts owed to other unsecured creditors who will always have a claim against CINE, and hence any value realised will have to go towards meeting such debts first. Unless that is they all fall into line and accept restructuring which clears all debts, leaving the shell company for the shareholders, and that could be worth lot more than what it's worth today.

And the sp starts spiking...any reason why?

JAB...POLY will disappear quickly as the shares will be delisted. Evraz goes on as it is suspended, not delisted.

I'm not an expert but yes that stands to reason. May be there lies the value if there is any for existing shareholders instead of some secret chamber stashed with gold which Tegsy have been going on about. A shell company stuffed with tax losses to offset for any other 'cinema' operator within that tax jurisdiction.

Of course I stand to be corrected.