Ye, i saw it before it was deleted. It stated NASDAQ spin off of imutex to be announced tomorrow. Hmmmm. If info such as that has leaked i am surprised we didnt see a spike in price. Time will tell
Thanks Earache, some useful info.
The base cost would be considered £nil in my opinion as it is the easiest/logical way to determine the true gain in economic benefit.
An alternative is that the dividend is recognised as income, with the income taxed accordingly, with the value of said dividend then becoming the new base cost. So, based on the previous example, £1k of dividend income, £500 of capital gain upon sale.
I do not specialise in personal tax, but i cannot see an outcome which would not result in either of the above becoming relevant. I personally think the former is the most realistic as the dividend in specie doesnt actually provide you with wealth until the share is sold. This echos the treatment of gift relief, whereby the recipient of free assets adopts them at the base cost of the previous owner, to be factored in when the recipient sells. Any eventual gain is based on the original purchase cost.
Regarding the "cost" when factoring in a proportion of an ORPH share, i dont know how this would be calculated. The ORPH price today is not based on net asset value, it is based on a combination of factors. ARB is worth £1b based on its market cap. If it were liquidated tomorrow it wouldnt end up with anything near £1b. Therefore, it's SP is based largely on sentiment/potential. Of course, someone could still consider it to be worth £1b, i'm not saying it isnt per se, but basing a business value of the balance sheet is the most basic metric and isnt used when buying/selling companies, largely due to the fact that is doesnt consider the actual company potential.
Therefore, our base cost in spin off Co wont be based on a perceived pro rate value of ORPH. At least not from what i have ever seen before. ORPH has its own base cost, the amount you bought it for, and will have it's own proceeds, the price you sell it for. Any eventual ORPH gain will be based on those two values
Third one from me :-)
According to HL you can complete the form in app. It will reduce US withholding tax from 30% to 15%, or to as low as 0% if held within a SIPP.
I am not sure if other brokers offer an in app/account feature, but as an HL user i am reassured that they will guide appropriately. There is talk of the non-core spin offs floating on NASDAQ so it is likely most ORPH holders will need to consider this implication at some point
Per a google search:
"If you are a non-US person that does business in the US, Form W-8BEN will establish your foreign status and allow you to claim tax exemption, or reduced tax rates, on US-sourced income. The US has an income tax treaty in place and FORM W-8BEN will establish your eligibility of treaty benefits."
So, completion of said form should reduce withholding tax payable, but may not remove it all together. I have no experience of holding US shares, but i am sure others will
Correct, in the UK. However, overseas territories may still withhold tax on any sale/dividends. Referred to as withholding tax. The w8-ben form is a form completed for the US tax authorities notifying them that you are a foreigner. I believe it results in less withholding tax being deducted, but i have no experience of owning overseas shares directly.
Anyone else have any experience of holding US shares, and the tax consequences associated?
@gbrandon. Thanks for dropping in. Always appreciated.
I am an accountant, but i dont specialise in personal tax.
If we assume a dividend in specie worth £1k then i believe you will be subject to capital gains tax when selling the eventual shares. However, the base cost would be £nil as you didnt buy them.
So, if you sold them for £1.5k then your gain would be £1.5k, not £500.
We are talking NASDAQ though, and US tax rules, w8-ben forms etc. I am not sure how that will all work. I personally hold ORPH in an ISA, but i still think i would be subject to US tax. Perhaps someone else can provide more detail from past experiences?
Does anyone have any experience of how the spin off/dividend in specie would work?
Is it akin to creating a company with say 1,000 shares (overly simplistic) to contain imutex along with a raise of say £200m. If that package is worth say £500m to ORPH holders then get 490 of the shares? (49%)
Or, would the spin off occur first, with a diluting cash raise soon after? So ORPH receive the same 490 shares, but this time from a pool of 2,000 shares, and so only 25% of the vehicle? The additional 1,000 shares (50%) being owned by the institutions.
If the latter, which i suspect is the case, is there a risk that, short term at the very least, that we would be better off with a cash sale?
I am sure we all want the best return in the end, and i do wonder what will generate the better returns. The potential of a new company, or three, is exciting, but the reality is that en masses dilution could hinder any significant return for years
Not my area of expertise i am afraid. However, I, like many, see MSYS becoming another piece in the DVRG puzzle at some point. We already share a BOD member and now have a business relationship with them. All over the past few weeks. Another MWG i think. Promising tech, under valued company
I do think we will see a lot of ARB profits come here. In the past few days the SP has stagnated and fallen a little. Some hardcore ARB devotees believe the story etc etc and they will have been holders for months/years.
However, many will see ARB as a flash in the pan opportunity to make a quick profit. The 20 bag returns in 2 months or so will have many itchy fingers hovering over the sell button.
MODE may not reach ARB market cap, but the MODE mcap is so low that it offers a lot more in terms of short term SP growth in my opinion. A lot of investors look at returns first, underlying company/investment case second (see gamestop!)
I think we have both here. Both underlying company and SP growth potential
I have a sizeable holding and i am optimistic for the future market cap. A question i do have concerns the cash we hold and how significant the cash inflows are at present.
As a public company they are able to raise at will, which will dilute the shareholders. Hopefully we can grow the mcap well before that is required so that any dilution is minimal.
The large % holding by the directors gives me confidence that they wont want to dilute too much. Hopefully we have access to a decent loan facility and would even sell off the BTC reserve before a diluting raise.
Any thoughts on this? The advertising drive will be costly to do right
And also as T Rat stated. Sorry T Rat, i didnt see your prompt response until after i posted :-)
Hi 2seabass, as stoater stated, microtox BT is a breathaliser owned and retained by the user. The user loads the breathaliser with a cartridge which contains the afirmers/aptamers that capture the breath. The breathaliser contains a saline solution that helps moisten the breath for optimum cartridge effectiveness. The user scans the cartridge with the barcode reader function of the health pass app on their smart phone before loading it into the breathaliser. All of the above can be done from the users home.
The user then visits a local venue containing a microtoxBT reader (in time, most public venues such as a supermarket - if it takes off). The contactless reader then receives and analyses the cartridge and sends back a "yay" or "nay" health pass to the app on the smartphone. The app will then grant a 24 hour all clear pass which can be used to gain access to venues upon displaying the app.
GB confirmed that housing the readers in public points of interest (supermarket etc) would be the most cost effective option. There is nothing to stop someone buying their own reader in time.
GB likened the cartridges to a regular consumable such as a razor blade, with a cost akin to a cup of coffee. Cheap enough that the masses could in theory adopt it, especially if there were government/NHS subsidies. The breathaliser would cost around £20/30, although that may have been speculation on here.
The reader would benefit from miniaturisation and economies in time, likened by GB to a DVD player, but the initial cost would be relatively high. £200 has been mentioned on this BB, but again, probably speculation.
Imo it has the potential to be the most accurate, most efficient and most practical end to end solution to help re-open the economy.
Let's hope it passes the trials...
Oh yea, microtox PD for underground detection too (on mass covid detection in your sh1 t for localised outbreaks by postcode etc)
If these devices are widely adopted then DVRG wont have £50m market cap for much longer...
Bottle necks of attendees is already prevalent at football grounds. At the London stadium (west ham) we had a huge bottle neck outside the ground so that the stewards who prove we werent carrying weapons. Each fan had to be metal detector tested before being allowed into the grounds of the venue. Each screening took 20 seconds per person. We still had to queue for an hour or so to progress.
Now, apply that bottle neck to covid testing stations on site where everyone must be kept 2 metres apart until they take a test to prove they dont have covid. It wont work. It will be a logistical nightmare. And you still run the risk of having hundred of infected people joining those bottle necks. Yes, they will fail the test and be turned away (much to their inconvenience) but in the process may have infected others.
The theoretical DVRG offering bypasses all of these issues
Hi Stoater, i make the point that the chip must be "dropped off" prior to gaining the health pass all clear in the first paragraph :-)
The advantage is that anyone who wants to attend the concert needs, in theory, to access one of what could be 10 or 20 local readers (at, say, a supermarket) to receive their all clear health pass.
The advantage of using a reader external to the desired concert is that you turn up with the all clear.
Turning up with uncertainty, only to be turned away at the door, is not practical. It also isnt practical to force all would be attendees into a pen of sorts until they prove the all clear on site as anyone who is proven to have covid on site will have potentially spread it to others during the waiting window/queue.
The advantage of DVRG offering is that one can test at home and acquire the pass at their leisure through the use of what could be thousands of devices (eventually, one day, who knows).
Any other method requires the possible infected to decend upon a venue. This isnt practical, whether the test is quick or not, especially if the numbers in attendence enters the thousands (football games, concerts etc).
The health pass also allows you to arrive at 2.50pm for a 3pm kick off. If you have the all clear then you know the venue will let you in.
Any on site testing probably means turning up an hour or so before kick off and standing in a queue. This isnt practical.
The DVRG offering is theoretical at present, it may not pass the trials and it may not be adopted. But theoretically the offering is more effective than onsite testing which is both time consuming and potentially dangerous given people could turn up not knowing if they have it. Not very practical imo
A number of other rapid testing methods have been highlighted over the past few days. However, i think the true value in our offering is the fact you test in private. You drop the chip off when convenient and then get the 24hr health pass for flashing to gain entry.
A rapid test only speeds up prognosis, it doesnt necessarily aid the real world effectiveness.
Take a night club or concert for example. Hundreds of drunks queueing up to enter the venue. Sticking them in a pen until they take the rapid test is pointless. If someone has covid then they will pass it on whilst waiting to be tested. A 2m social distanced queue wont work. Drink and other factors means people wont play ball, not to mention the length of said queue!
I have a saints season ticket. Each game we are queing 100 deep to access the ground at 2.55pm. Add 2m into that and that is a vast queue, especially at every turnstile, and even then, you might not know if you have it.
DVRG's offering means you find out before you leave the house. Everyone at the ground can be checked a lot quicker and if you dont have a health pass then you dont come in.
It's not perfect. People could always have their unethical mates take it for them if they are all selfish and want to have a night out. But this should be a rarity. Anyone caught doing this should be prosecuted.
We also have the application to other viruses and even cancer. Microtox BT really is going to be amazing, if it works. It is the best complete offering when compared to others out there. The fact it can be used to detect other ailments, including cancer (with the right chip) means its even bigger than just covid, which in itself is massive. We could be a matter of days away from finding out...
I bought into a tiny bitcoin miner in December. Market cap of £40m. ARB was the name. Not so small anymore, but unsustainably big imo. Sold out this week and plunged half the profits in here. Bought my average up a lot, but with the potential we have here i think it is money well spent!
How ARB with approx £20m turnover can be valued five times inexcess of ORPH is ridiculous. I see a bright future for ORPH. The spin off companies, in their own right, may end up sizable too. I certainly dont intend on cashing in the shares from those companies. NASDAQ values companies at higher levels than LSE. Those spin off companies could do very well indeed!
In a recent interview CF said he hoped we could achieve a 1 billion market cap (dollars) quicker than it took us to grow from "1 to 200 million market cap"
I assume he means £100m to £200m market cap, and not £1m to £200m market cap! I dont think we were ever at £1m, so must be £100m to £200m.
$1b market cap is approx £713m (or approx £1.06 SP)
£100m is approx 14p, with £200m approx 28p. We had a 14p share price (£100m mcap) in September, approx 6 months ago.
So, CF expects us to grow from £200m to £713m in less time than it took to grow from £100m to £200m. We can therefore deduce that CF expects equivalent value of £1.06 per share (3 bag) in less than 6 months.
I say equivalent value as i suspect that the dividend in specie for the non-core assets will be part of this return. However, a dividend in specie wouldnt contribute to our mcap, as a new entity will be spun off. So, if ORPH achieved £713m mcap + the various dividend in specie then the value for us shareholders will be immense!
I would be happy with either eventuality over the next 6 months :-)
A quick calculation shows £830k of delayed trades from the 18th. Someone is keen, and that isnt punt money!
The price hasnt moved too much despite those buys, so presumably a decent chunk of seed investor stock has been shifted. Next week will be interesting.
Coinbase at $77b (approx. £50b). 833x the market cap of MODE. Something to aspire to ;-)
Have a great weekend all
JW is a pretty good stock picker. He works at VOX so he knows his stuff. In the past he has promoted ORPH, ARB, SKIN, PHE and BIDS, many of which in the days before the rise.
He always provides decent insight into the shares he is looking to buy. The criticism by some is the fact he pumps after buying and then possibly sells into the rise. I dont think there is any proof of this, from what i have seen, but some think he knows his followers will blindly buy because he recommends a share, and that he is gone once the herd pushes it up 30/40%.
If you do your own research JW tips can be lucrative