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It would make sense to test with smaller influencers, since I'm pretty sure using influencers is a new thing for DeepVerge. Very easy to waste money in marketing, so testing makes sense before committing big money.
Not sure about this, but suspect they believe they can offer affiliate revenue to influencers: so a % share of sales generated by an influencer rather than paying them to promote per se.
Affiliate marketing might be a difficult sell to popular influencers, it's not an easy way to generate sales, but on the plus side the marketing costs are low. I've made a lot of money from affiliate marketing, there's plenty of services like Shareasale, Clickbank etc... where DeepVerge could add their affiliate offering.
trillsg Consider MSYS is a better place to invest £50K IF you can buy shares at 0.1p.
Would have been the equivalent of buying DeepVerge shares at a major discount, say 15p a share.
If I had the option to buy MSYS at 0.1p I'd sell some shares (not DeepVerge though) to buy them, but I don't have that option so would have to pay around 0.25p for MSYS which is overpriced IMHO: which is why I hold no MSYS shares.
Other than how selling DeepVerge shares looks (directors etc... selling shares always looks bad), I don't have a problem with it. It's someone taking advantage of being able to buy shares in MSYS on the cheap, most here would do the same thing.
The fundamentals of DeepVerge haven't changed, so as someone looking to hold for years (as long as the fundamentals are good) I'm not concerned about this short-term SP weakness. I took advantage of the weakness and added more at less than 30p.
WoW, assumed it would have gone into admin first, didn't realise it was so bad MSYS would have gone straight into liquidation!
Would have been a real shame to see the tech, IP and expertise potentially lost, so glad it's got a second chance of success.
HelloSanDiego Tests take time, things might be delayed due to lockdowns.
Chrysalis1 I avoid putting dates or prices on anything because I'm far more likely to be wrong than right. Based on value the current MSYS SP looks way overvalued to me based on the 90%+ dilution which is why I didn't buy in at 8am the morning the link between DeepVerge and MSYS was announced. Value wise the SP should have dropped that day: I watched the ask price temporarily dip to 0.2p that morning and wasn't tempted to buy in (it then went up to 0.4p, so others disagreed with me).
If you look at the products MSYS offer https://www.microsaic.com/products/ they fit in well with DeepVerge either as a collaboration or a long-term merge. The customer overlap with Modern Water is significant, so wouldn't be rocket science to merge the two product ranges into one sales team (saving money) or have Modern Water also selling MSYS products for a revenue share: Modern Water does have sales teams around the world.
From my perspective I'd like to see DeepVerge acquire MSYS IF the price is right, if not a long-term collaboration.
Short-term I think MSYS is going to take a hit. From their Interim results 2 September 2020 https://polaris.brighterir.com/public/microsaic_systems/news/rns/story/rge867w
"Sales performance
Revenues in H1 2020 at £71,992 were 78.1% lower than H1 2019 (£328,428). Revenues were significantly affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and the resulting lockdown restrictions across the globe."
It's unlikely H2 2020 was any better, so the 2020 FY results are going to look really bad to investors, especially the PIs currently buying in now on the speculative hype MSYS is going to the moon. We all know how PIs can overreact to a loss, doesn't matter if it was before they had £5m cash to spend on the recovery.
If the MSYS SP drops to 0.15p after results I might buy some to benefit from the DeepVerge collaboration/possible merger. If the SP does head towards 0.15p over the next 9 months (when the hype is gone) then would be a good time for DeepVerge to acquire them.
I think that would be a good price for us DeepVerge shareholders, we'll be able to see if the £5m is being spent wisely and if the company is being fixed/recovered. Still a premium over what the company could've been bought for recently, but it will be less risky, so you'd expect to pay more.
I could of course be completely wrong, if sentiment for MSYS remains positive maybe the SP will go up, but then I don't think it would be good value for DeepVerge shareholders to acquire as it will be at a BIG premium which we've sort of already paid for via buying MSYS products.
Guess we will have to wait and see.
HelloSanDiego Why are you asking in this thread when you posted this earlier?
"The real concern is in the lack of updates on the breathalyser. That's what, not so long ago, took the share price to 3x where it is now.
If they're expecting to manufacture and sell millions of them this year, shouldn't production contracts be signed and pre-orders be flooding in?"
Did you forget what you already knew a few hours ago when you wrote the above in the "RE: Ramping/Twitter" thread?
Can I suggest you see a Dr about your short-term amnesia, could suggest a serious health problem!
Chrysalis1 MSYS is a failing business, let's say DeepVerge offered to buy it for £2m or even £1m, where would the money have come from to fix the business? Take into account the new MSYS shares raised £5m, that cash is to fix and rebuild the business.
So for DeepVerge to buy and rebuild the business would have meant raising £6m-£7m by issuing new DeepVerge shares to buy a failing business which is not guaranteed to recover.
Personally I prefer this outcome, new investors are risking their £5m to fix MSYS and if the speculation is correct the DeepVerge shareholders buy the business for DeepVerge shares. Will cost DeepVerge more, but it's safer, if MSYS fail to recover, DeepVerge don't have to buy them.
Note: I don't see MSYS as worth £15m+, that's a SP due to simple supply and demand, although the current MSYS shares have been diluted by over 90%, so far few of the new shares have been sold and investors are buying shares on speculation, so the SP hasn't fallen yet.
What's going to happen when MSYS start to release trading updates showing a massive loss which took them to the verge of admin?
nlondon1234 I researched MSYS the weekend before anyone here knew DeepVerge was interested in MSYS: I saw a potential link between GB and MSYS, so researched what they did and saw the potential immediately.
MSYS has some really good tech and IP and were on the verge of admin, had GB etc... not got involved the company would probably be in admin now!
The mini mass spectrometers are a perfect fit for Modern Water, I can see it being integrated into the Modern Water offering making both companies more revenue.
Yes it's speculation MSYS will be merged with DeepVerge, seems a nobrainer to me. Fix the underlying issues with MSYS, merge it with DeepVerge to build a stronger group long-term.
Short-term it will likely hit the DeepVerge share price, but I'm in for years, so though I don't like seeing the SP drop below 30p when it should be breaking through 40p based on forward revenue I'll patiently wait for the market to get over the short-term pain and look to the long-term gains.
How is it some of you did not know the plan to build DeepVerge long-term is a process of collaboration and merging to build a larger, better group?
GB did this with Alltracel Pharma and is using the same plan with DeepVerge. If you did deep research what we are seeing between DeepVerge and MSYS shouldn't be a surprise.
See his LinkedIn profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/gjbrandon/
"Management buy-in and CEO of AIM-listed company, DeepVerge plc and founder and CEO of Alltracel Pharma, a Start-up that was eventually sold for $55m in 2008 after first IPO in 2001.
Change management expertise in transforming early-stage science, and engineering companies, that are normally pre-revenue, into large multi-national commercial companies. Author of Real Business Secrets - Bootstrapping a Multinational Business Empire. How to transform loss-making, pre-revenue, early-stage, start-up science, engineering and consumer healthcare companies using a variety of financial engineering mechanisms and multi-continent strategic collaborations to reach the commercialisation stage.
Using capital markets, without venture capital, in failed or failing companies to complete 15 corporate transactions and advised 5 London Stock Market listings in the last 24 years."
Take a look at Alltracel Pharma, it was built in a similar way to DeepVerge: collaborate and merge.
DeepVerge is in the building phase, pulling together failing businesses like SkinLab, Modern Water and MSYS to build a group which long-term could compete in multiple markets.
If you aren't prepared for DeepVerge to spend money on mergers for long-term success, then DeepVerge probably isn't your type of investment.
Watergenius You lost all credibility when you wrote "They can fake every number but profit.".
Are you accusing DeepVerge etc... of faking revenue numbers etc...?
If so, evidence... then we can pass it on to the FCA. If you have nothing, you come across as a deramper or bitter PI who mistimed the market.
What are you smoking coolcatcol?
DeepVerge revenue for 2020 was £4.4m
Forward revenue guidance at £10m not including potential revenue from new things like the Covid-19 breathalyser.
Why do people post this sort of BS when basic research proves them wrong!
daygrow We have those sorts of numbers, from memory £4.4m was from LabSkin last yr and more than half of the £10m revenue guidance for this year.
Look at recent RNS's for details, though the £10m revenue breakdown was from a YouTube interview (think with Proactive in January maybe?).
Without rewatching it, was something like an assumption ModernWater would recover it's 2019 revenue to £4m because now they have working capital (before they had to take a payment in advance to be able to build the kit!). The other £6m was SkinLab.
There was no revenue guidance for the breathalyser and anything else new like SkinTrustClub, so very good chance the £10m estimate is an underestimate.
This is all from memory, so you should confirm it for yourself.
That's funny, at this rate MSYS will acquire DVRG. :-)
Does show how bad PIs are at basic stock research.
DVRG mcap around £50m
MSYS mcap around £16m (was below £1m until the placing)
DeepVerge is on the verge of big success with multiple moats.
MSYS was on the verge of admin, saved by a £5m placing diluting current shareholders by over 90%.
What should have happened (from a fundamentals perspective) was when the placing came the MYSY shares dropped way below 0.2p, the original shares where technically no longer worth much, but 'us' PIs saw that as a buy opportunity and the SP has been jumping around never dropping below 0.2p.
Very interesting to watch from a behavior perspective: the SP is driven by short-term supply and demand vs value based on fundamentals. Logic has been thrown out the window. Going to be an interesting one to watch as MSYS puts out trading updates with revenue amounts etc...
I have no issue with anyone pointing out the negatives of a stock, I do it all the time, but helix has ZERO balance, all he does is deramp and as such his unbalanced view should be discounted.
I can't take anyone serious who doesn't cover the pros and cons of a stock, a stock isn't like Marmite, you can have a nuanced view.
Feel free to prove me wrong helix, make a balanced post about Bidstack.
Cover simple things like:
Pros: massive increase in revenue indicating huge growth potential, one of the few players in the in-game advertising sector with early mover advantage, impressive list of advisers involved and links with major game developers, if they break through as a major in-game advertising platform it's a money printing machine long-term...
Cons: heavy cash burn rate probably means at least one more placing (dreaded dilution) before breakeven/profit later this year/next year, CEO over ramped in the past and even now seems incapable of promoting the company consistently (the 7 AAA games interview behind a bloody paywall for example!!!), early delays gave competitors time to catch up threatening their early mover advantage...
Newboy58 also an investor not a trader and other than finding the best in/out prices I'm not that concerned about day to day % changes where there's no fundamental reason for the drop/rise since I have no plans to sell anytime soon.
That being said, there are a lot of PIs who say they are investors, but panic sell at the first sign of a drop without taking fundamentals into account, they add to the volatility and probably lose money long-term. Don't read that as I'm saying you aren't an investor (could be read that way, but not my intention).
Fundamentals win long-term and DVRG has fundamentals on it's side.
As I finish typing this the SP just went into the positive.
mugginsthedog It's not just a simple case of buying MSYS and adding it to DVRG, the business needs to be fixed first and that takes a lot of ££££££s. Hence the £5m placing of MSYS shares at 0.1p pulling in new investors money**.
Would investors in DeepVerge have been happier with say a £1m buyout of MSYS followed by a £5m placing in DVRG shares to pay to fix MSYS? MSYS could still fail, if it does it doesn't damage DeepVerge.
**IF MSYS is fixed AND DVRG acquire them for DVRG shares, those new investors will become DVRG investors.
Newboy I didn't call "everyone stupid" I said:
"Because of how stupid and short-term thinking people are this short-term results in the DeepVerge SP taking a hit, 'we' see DeepVerge spending money, don't like it, so sell. Long-term though it's the DeepVerge shareholders who benefit from a larger, more successful business."
That was in reference to investing in the future at a short-term cost, like acquiring Modern Water.
Are you arguing that's not how people act when a company spends money?
It's stupid to act that way, but it's not stupid to understand that's how 'we' think/act and to adapt our position to benefit from it. Like buying shares when a stock is taking dip with no fundamental reason for taking a dip. Or seeing a SP is going to dip, sell, wait for the dip and buy back.
Oxygen, you can't assume this "Today was a good chance to acquire stock, just don’t expect any ground breaking news anytime soon. Ms GB wouldn’t have sold !"
I agree with the first part, I bought more DVRG today. Disagree with the second part.
There was a short window of opportunity to buy MSYS shares at 0.1p, offering a riskier investment with more long-term upside vs holding DVRG.
Buying MSYS at 0.1p gave an instant 100%+ paper return on her investment. Had she just held DVRG to gain the same growth probably requires 6+ months holding. Even with good news potentially due soon it's unlikely DVRG will break way above 75p in the next few months.
WoW at how unbelievable uninformed and shortsighted some of you are here. How can you consider yourselves INFORMED investors when you can't even see what's going on here?
Look at the big picture.
DeepVerge is building a group of companies and collaborations because together they are better.
SkinLab is good, it's better with RhinoCloud AI.
ModernWater is good, it's better with RhinoCloud AI.
MSYS is good, it's better as part of the ModerWater solution.
If you don't already know the above your research skills are rubbish, can I suggest you move your money into a safe bank account where you won't lose it all.
How can you not see the path here, you've seen it before with ModernWater?
Find a company with something special (MSYS has amazing tech and IP) that's been run into the ground, inject cash, clear out the old problem BODs etc... who dropped the ball and when it's fixed add it to the DeepVerge group via a share purchase.
Because of how stupid and short-term thinking people are this short-term results in the DeepVerge SP taking a hit, 'we' see DeepVerge spending money, don't like it, so sell. Long-term though it's the DeepVerge shareholders who benefit from a larger, more successful business.
Do you believe DeepVerge would be better long-term without the addition of ModernWater?
With regards GB's Mrs selling DVRG shares to buy MSYS shares at a price most of us here couldn't dream of (I'd have bought £5K worth of MSYS at 0.1p, but not at 0.2p+) it's a smart, but riskier investment move vs remaining in DVRG. MSYS could still fail, DVRG in comparison looks secure.
Would anyone have had a problem with GB's Mrs buying £50k worth of MSYS without selling DVRG shares? If not, why do some of you have a problem with her doing what many here do when building a portfolio?
I saw the SP drop as an opportunity and bought more DVRG at 29.5p, didn't think I'd get to add more at that price. Now had MSYS dropped to around 0.15p today I'd have put my money there instead.
We are investors, take a deep breath and act like one.
mugginsthedog It's a better (I'd say different risk) investment because MSYS was about to fail and the new investors got shares at 0.1p which was less than half the value of the shares at the time.
To achieve the same with DVRG requires either GB's Mrs to buy new shares at around 15p or for the SP to go above 60p overnight! Highly unlikely.
It's unlikely the new investors would have invested in MYSY had the price they had to pay was 0.2p or more.
I noticed the potential link between DeepVerge and MSYS the weekend before it was announced and asked GB via Twitter DM, I'm sure he skipped a few heartbeats that I'd seen the link: if I had any influence in investment circles (I don't) and had gone public (I didn't and wouldn't have) it could have damaged the deal.
Those types of rescue deals are risky, the business was about to go into admin and even now it's not 100% safe, it still has to be turned around. So moving money from DeepVerge to MYSY is a risky investment and only worth it at 0.1p a share. Though presumably less of a risk for GB's Mrs as she knows what her husband has planned and so trusts the process more than an average investor might do so.
Even though having a Director/PDMR Shareholding sale looks bad, I don't have a problem with it, so considering it as a possible opportunity to add a little more to my holdings since fundamentally nothing changed and the potential long-term tie up with MSYS with DeepVerge I see as a positive.