The next focusIR Investor Webinar takes places on 14th May with guest speakers from Blue Whale Growth Fund, Taseko Mines, Kavango Resources and CQS Natural Resources fund. Please register here.
London South East prides itself on its community spirit, and in order to keep the chat section problem free, we ask all members to follow these simple rules. In these rules, we refer to ourselves as "we", "us", "our". The user of the website is referred to as "you" and "your".
By posting on our share chat boards you are agreeing to the following:
The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. As a user you agree to any information you have entered being stored in a database. You agree that we have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic or board at any time should we see fit. You agree that we have the right to remove any post without notice. You agree that we have the right to suspend your account without notice.
Please note some users may not behave properly and may post content that is misleading, untrue or offensive.
It is not possible for us to fully monitor all content all of the time but where we have actually received notice of any content that is potentially misleading, untrue, offensive, unlawful, infringes third party rights or is potentially in breach of these terms and conditions, then we will review such content, decide whether to remove it from this website and act accordingly.
Premium Members are members that have a premium subscription with London South East. You can subscribe here.
London South East does not endorse such members, and posts should not be construed as advice and represent the opinions of the authors, not those of London South East Ltd, or its affiliates.
Beware of the string of "buys" as a number will in fact be sales. This happens a lot, If you see a buy at say 35.4 then the next buy of a similar quantity is 35.1 it is probably a sale. MMs will not reduce the price for the next purchase of a similar quantity. This may be followed by buys of 35.3 then 35 .6 followed buy a buy of 35.2 which again is more likely to be a sale although listed as a buy.
The reverse happens with a long list of sales. We have known this for certain when we purchased some FFWD amid a load of sales. Although we paid just above the last sale ours was still listed as a sale.
This is a generalisation but is usually correct. So just follow the price of the trade.
@mytton re uprating last year, yes I'd love to know what was behind that since its clear this company is worthless unless they can find a greater fool to sell it to. A great fool than NW that is. Which is a tough ask.
I was an original invester at £1 because at the time Woodford was still riding high on his reputation from Invesco as well as the rah rah brigade from Hargreaves Lansdown.
Had I known that Woodford was playing 'pin the tail on the donkey' with his share picking activities I would not have gone near. Fortunately I only have a small holding here, but many went in deep just on the name.
IH accounts are overdue
Someone knows something, must be a major announcement soon.
-Closure?
-Major reevaluation of the NAV writing off the dead wood (such as IH -> 0)?
-Short attack?
Even if you think the share price is roughly what the true NAV is theres a big risk your money could be stuck there for a year or so whilst they shutter this IT and sell its assets off. And in the meantime if markets fall theres nothing you can do about it.
I took a small loss at about 80p a few months ago and glad I did. as for 35p possibly being good, I'm sadly not convinced. The idea behind the trust was very good but after the debacle elsewhere, all confidence in NW has disappeared.
I bought a few of these at 84p two years ago and still holding them. That's 2 bad decisions. Glad I only had a small investment and didn't average down. That's 2 good decisions. Never thought we'd see them at 35p ... and falling. I'm now tempted to just sell and take the loss like everyone else seems to be doing. I guess 35p might look like a good deal in a month's time.
As we have previously indicated the NAV is a guess with a lot of the companies invested in.
The only way to wind up the fund is to gradually sell the holdings over a long period of time. Trying to sell all at once only produces a fire sale.
Honestly feel it would be better to continue with the fund under a new manager who would sell bits and pieces of the unwanted companies and reinvest in more stable companies, eventually gaining the trust of both the holders and new investors in the fund.
That way patience will see the price rise and buyers at the low point will make a big gain or they will even out, if an existing holder.
Still waiting for links to any press release etc from IH to explain Woodford's +357% revaluation of IH - resulting in a significant NAV uplift for WPCT (rns of 21.9.18).
Mr C - a discount to what? A spurious NAV figure.
Most ITs invest in quoted stocks so the NAV is transparent. WPCT highlights the problem with unquoted stocks - the value is whatever the manager wants it to be, e.g. the +357% revaluation of IH in the rns of 21.9.18.
Uncle -sorry you are right in the med to long term, but the discount has widened in the last couple of weeks..
mrcautious - you're wrong - the NAV has been steadily falling since Woody gated the "unrelated" (ha ha) WEIF back in June. On the rare day the NAV increases the amount is usually minute. I am down over 50% on these but I reckon when they appoint a new manager things will pick up. I feel there are some underlying investments that could do very well over the next 6 months. I also agree with poster who suggested removing the now tarnished word "Woodford" from the fund name - that must be a another factor causing the rush of sellers.
IH HOLDINGS INTERNATIONAL LIMITED
Company number 09553031
Accounts overdue
Next accounts made up to 31 December 2018
due by 30 September 2019
@mrcautious
WPCT release a daily RNS showing the NAV - personally I wouldn't say it's markedly improved from yesterday after only going up pence (and its NAV is certainly lower than last Weds.)
If trust is wound up, I'd be very surprised if anything near NAV shown was achieved looking at underlying holdings with so much illiquid stock. There is a discount with share price, but not 40% as appears here. There appear some 'good' kind companies in there like Rutherford Health (previously known as Proton Partners) who seem at forefront of advancing cancer care. It was charitable Mr Woodford supported such a great cause (and continues to do so with million-pound cash injections they ask for ), and proton beam therapy seems so much better than standard chemo, but I don't think it's the best for the health of his long-suffering investors.
I don't think this will be wound up but another manager appointed could give it a welcome boost. Good luck all.
But its a perverse world where the share price of an IT drops significantly after an RNS stating a radically increased NAV --- woodford really must be hated now !
You are perfectly correct about buying now if it is wound up. However we feel it is not likely to be wound up, but continue with a new manager eventually. Although the odds are evens for both continue or wound up to be fair. We were just saying that it could keep retreating and buying later may produce a bigger return. It is all guess work. If it goes to 35p bid we would buy some more if the NAV is unchanged. We actually priced our new purchase at 40p. So for us it will be on a whim when we buy or the fact we want to use some of the new investment money up. Hopefully, we do buy more before it is wound up.
Its worth buying now purely on the basis that if the trust is wound up the ROI will 50% higher, and this could happen too as it is gradually happening with ELTA...
We bought in last year with only a small investment, now is it time to add. With the NAV at a so called over 50% above the SP it may be OK to buy. BUT the majority do not want to buy so regardless of the NAV it will continue to drift. Where to is anyone's guess, so We will continue to watch it. When it was 40p not long ago there was a little bit of buying up tp 45p approx. Then back it came, we were almost tempted at 41 but held back. so even if it goes to 35p and a rebound follows to 40p it will again retreat more likely. Only short term buying when it drops 15% and then selling at a small profit is probably what happened then and may do again. So until it gets to a level it will not go past for a sustained period of time, long term investment is not on the cards yet. So we shall just sit and watch before adding to our holding. A new manager will get it rising about 20 % or 25% below NAV is our guess. Every one is watching and waiting. Very Similar To FFWD where the NAV is nearly double the share price. At least WPCT can only drop another 40p!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The lower it goes the more profit those who bought in at the bottom will make .
@MartyPoppins
Drop Woodford? Or Patient? I'd say both - in fact all four words appear misleading.
Woodford clearly isn't managing it responsibly, with his focus on WEIF creating a conflict of interest between the fund and WPCT
Patient - surely everyone's patience has run out with him now.
Capital - debatable with Industrial Heat whether there actually ever was as much capital there as NAV states.
Trust - surely all trust has gone from the man who withdraws over 1,700,000 of his own investment to pay his 'tax bill'. BoD clearly don't trust him and will appoint a new person as soon as they can find anyone who wants to pick up this poison chalice.
Now in the 30's. Time to drop the first word of the fund's name IMO.
Maybe all three funds should be wound up as early as possible because the damage from any Woodford brand effect I doubt can be reclaimed for many years even with improved returns.
Pure speculation to anyone that is still interested in/invested here, but most people like rouges don't they.
I bet Tom Darden couldn't believe his luck when Woodford arrived with $$$ to throw around...
https://news.newenergytimes.net/2019/06/07/bad-cold-fusion-investment-contributes-to-woodford-fund-collapse/
The main trouble with WPCT was that Woodford was in a rush to get, the over subscribed initial offering, invested. Basically it was like giving a 10 year old £100 million to spend wisely, you just know they're going to come back with a magic bean. That was what IH was, a magic bean, then Woodford needed to pretend the bean was growing. I'd like to think he convinced himself there was value in IH, if so he was just deluded. As to the other beans some will undoutedly hold value others just long term drains. I think until a new management team take over and completely prunes the dead wood, excuse the pun, this is going nowhere except down. Bite the bullet I did at 60p and didn't regret that decision. At some point in the future there might be a possibility of recovering some losses, good luck to any holders you're braver than I was.
What's the betting that he actually gets a pay off to go? His career is over so he might as well take whatever is on offer. Who the hell would invest with him in the future?
WPCT is "over"...take what you can, dust yourselves off and walk away.
You have had over a year since the "curious" +357% revaluation of IH, resulting in wpct's NAV increase to 99p (21 Sept 2018 RNS).
How much more notice do you need?
That should have alerted people that NAV based on unquoted stocks is whatever Woodford decides it is. And dont give me that " independent valuation" guff. Woodford decided to issue that rns and he decided NAV.
I can find nothing regarding IH to justify that revaluation. If anyone can find evidence of cold fusion research by that co or its partners or any actual research facility ( excluding mail addresses and small unit & office in Raleigh) I would gladly reconsider.