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Bloomy, as much as NicName may well be right, if he's wrong then he doesn't need to be wrong by much to have missed a massive multibag opportunity. Probably shoiting himself at the thought.
What a fu cking sad life you must have . Chatting on shares all day if your involve is one thing if not wow , get a fu cking hobbie for god sake
I've nothing to 'move on' from Bloomy, I'm not holding a bag. I can't 'speak' for others but I did try to warn.
"The facts are no body knows" On the contrary, the facts are that somebody knows and should the story ever be revealed perhaps you may get the opportunity to understand why it might matter. (Even then I expect some will still be in denial.)
The shares are suspended so there's no incentive for me to ramp. My judgment is often faulty and it's true that 95% of administrations don't provide a shareholder return so the odds are stacked against it here.
But I still struggle to see how the debts of the company are clearly higher than the value of its assets. If anyone can explain how patents projected to earn up to £20m in royalties over the next few years and a 49% stake in a company with EBITDA projections of £40m in a few years are worth next to nothing then I'm all ears.
The facts are no body knows , the likely hood is shareholders will receive nada . If people want to believe they may still see a return what does it matter to you ?? Do you take pleasure in putting them right ? So sad . Just move on .
Maxi, if you can't see what's wrong with your hypothetical scenario you haven't much hope of grasping the SED situation, but to provide you with a very simplistic analogy reflective of your own, just suppose the 'diamond' is paste.
Sorry to disappoint, but the shareholders will not receive a penny now. Better to start coming to terms with that.
RGhost, that example wasn't me saying Saietta has assets worth £100m, it was just an example.
Have you looked at the latest balance sheet for end of September? It doesn't show a mountain of debt. The company has no loans and no secured debt. It will need to pay outstanding creditors, accrued salaries and the costs of the administrator. After using its current cash and receivables and flogging off the plant and machinery and inventory I don't see how the net amount owed to creditors will be over £5-7m. They could well be significantly less.
So the question is, can the AFT IP, the Propel marine IP and the Saietta VNA 49% stake be sold for more than that amount? If they can't shareholders will lost everything. If they can shareholders will be in the money.
I personally don't know enough about the tech to know how much it can be sold for but I wouldn't bet that someone will pick it up for peanuts.
So that me
Max you have lost your 100 quid lol
Give up and stop dreaming
@Maxi19, good luck with that.
In almost 99% of all bankruptcies, shareholders don't get anything.
Think your hypotheritcal something realister:
- Saietta assets consist of dedicated production machinery. They do not own 100m of diamond, but in the best case 30m of IP value. This is only value on a production that is not yet finished. The assets such as production machinery will be made specifically for saietta and which other manufacturers are unlikely to want.
-so there might be a theoretical value of 100m, but in practice it might be 30m. In the end, it's also about what other people will give for it then.
- Given Saietta's numbers and burn rate in recent years, the cost of personnel and rent is a lot higher than that 20m.
We haven't heard anything about the amount of debt, but if they run out of cash as of September I expect the debt mountain to be quite high.
- In addition, first EY will start paying out their salary from that for administration costs and these will not be cheap. Then also the government the rest of the debts and only then come the shareholder.
So of that 30m worth of assets, maybe 1m goes to EY, 5m government and 30m to other debts.
Good luck with getting something. Just look at all the other bankruptcies, shareholders almost never get anything.
Oh and well don't forget that in the past no stuff has been sold from Saietta, only orders were placed that are worth nothing because Saietta cannot deliver. That means no money but will flow to Saietta.
For those of you unable to even consider a possible shareholder on an administration, consider this hypothetical:
- I set up a company and use it to purchase a £100m diamond.
- the business is getting people to pay to see the diamond. The company rents a store for £1m/year, fits it out with expensive security devices and hires several staff.
- the entry price is £20, but not enough people buy tickets to cover the cost of the rent, salaries and insurance.
- the company goes into debt of £20m but the business is unviable. It runs out of working capital and goes into administration.
In that scenario, where the creditors are owed £20m but the diamond is worth £100m, would I, as shareholder of the company, get a return?
They're taking control of the company for the benefit and best interests of the company's creditors -- not your interests. This is the Alternative Investment Market, you'll get bugga all.
True, FlyingHigher, but new or young investors / speculators have to start somewhere and in practice can readily be drawn in when it appears there is a opportunity to make an easy quick return. If we are to be honest with ourselves I would expect we've all been there at least once! However, some newbies learn quickly and others are less astute. There are many opportunities to in the markets make a dollar without encouraging the naive to loose theirs. It's a practice which bears similarities to pickpocketing!
Yes NicName I take your point. It's certainly unethical, but people will also say it's each individual's responsibility to conduct own due diligence.
Neil, I don't think anything you've written here has engaged with the business fundamentals.
The administrator has to write a public report explaining what everything was sold for / what it was valued at, so there will be full transparency. So let's have your predictions on what the following will be sold for, either collectively or individually?
- the AFT IP
- the Propel IP
- the 49% stake in Saietta VNA
Or do you think they're all worthless?
Without Silverstone and Sunderland the business shouldn't have too much expenditure. If the Propel IP were sold for a decent amount it's even possible it could become a shell holding the AFT IP and the Saietta VNA stake.
Haha my god the administration team will be in bits laughing
Max I think what happened is you and the others plumbs didn't listen to Neil and keep buying and you lost everything.. end of
What I suspect has happened is that potential buyers are interested in the AFT and other patents, the Saietta VNA stake and the Propel IP, maybe not one buyer interested in all of them but individually.
What they're probably not interested in is the UK operations, that is Silverstone and Sunderland, which on their own are hugely loss making. However, even though a buyer could have come in and shut all those operations down it would have generated very bad publicity and it's also possible the board, in order to support a takeover offer, would have wanted guarantees that the business would have been recapitalised.
Without Silverstone and Sunderland the business shouldn't have too much expenditure. If the Propel IP were sold for a decent amount it's even possible it could become a shell holding the AFT IP and the Saietta VNA stake.
For those who still consider that there is value to be had, why not post an offer to buy to any other shareholders wishing to sell their shares? There must be a number of holders in sufficient size which would make a deal attractive to both parties.
Market cap. at suspension is indicated as £944.19k on LSE against business value suggestions of £10m and more, whilst the s/p bottomed around 0.3p and rested at 0.65p when suspended. Surely adequate scope to make a decent return according to the reasoning that has been made. So, gentlemen (and ladies, if present) how much are you willing to offer others for their shares and in what volume?
"It's not a scam, it's an investment strategy. If you can buy low liquidity shares, convince enough other people to buy after you, surge the share price and exit, you'll make money."
General question: If this strategy is carried out in the knowledge that "enough other people" may be unable to exit their positions and could be left 'carrying the bag'..., how might you define it then?
I don't know much about it either and yes I'm guilty of speculating too much.
Been in several and been a creditor to several , best I’ve ever been offed was 1 penny in the pound . Just see it as gone . We took a chance and lost .
They are obliged to get 'market value'....ok, may be true of property, but you have just seen exactly what the market value of Saietta is in the market!
I have seen this with a company similar to Saietta before, the will hope someone comes along an makes a reasonable offer to pick up and sort out all the tangible stuff (which the administrators won't want to do) plus some value for the IPR. There is no obligation to sell to the highest bidder especially if it comes with added complexities for the administrators....