The latest Investing Matters Podcast with Jean Roche, Co-Manager of Schroder UK Mid Cap Investment Trust has just been released. Listen here.
London South East prides itself on its community spirit, and in order to keep the chat section problem free, we ask all members to follow these simple rules. In these rules, we refer to ourselves as "we", "us", "our". The user of the website is referred to as "you" and "your".
By posting on our share chat boards you are agreeing to the following:
The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. As a user you agree to any information you have entered being stored in a database. You agree that we have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic or board at any time should we see fit. You agree that we have the right to remove any post without notice. You agree that we have the right to suspend your account without notice.
Please note some users may not behave properly and may post content that is misleading, untrue or offensive.
It is not possible for us to fully monitor all content all of the time but where we have actually received notice of any content that is potentially misleading, untrue, offensive, unlawful, infringes third party rights or is potentially in breach of these terms and conditions, then we will review such content, decide whether to remove it from this website and act accordingly.
Premium Members are members that have a premium subscription with London South East. You can subscribe here.
London South East does not endorse such members, and posts should not be construed as advice and represent the opinions of the authors, not those of London South East Ltd, or its affiliates.
04-Jul-22 12:46:06 272.00 5,663,000 Buy* 270.70 270.90 15m O
Barely touched the sp. Could it be a short reducing their position?
simx perhaps DK/Vesa or AN Other increasing their stake. Should find out in the next day or two.
Do you know how long it would take for large orders to be placed and filled?
4th July is independence day, quiet day for trading so that goes with keeping it under the radar. If one assumed that the buyer would specify the price they want to pay when the order is placed, then the broker would need to ensure the sp allowed for that price to be achieved, which could be easier effect on a quiet day.
AS/Simx I checked the trade on London Stock Exchange 5663000 for £15.4m showing as off book. It has a flag of TNCP which on checking is described as TNCP Non Price Forming Transactions and Non Price Contribution to Discovery Indicators.
Whatever that means. Perhaps some of the professionals can clarify. Is it suggesting a buy without impacting price surely not? Lets see tomorrow/Wednesday. I will plump for something to do with Blackrock, just a pure guess.
JB, surely yes, I was watching the ticker and the trade had no impact on the sp. which would be bizarre if it were just a normal buy. Just found this:
'price discovery involves finding where supply and demand meet. In economics, the supply curve and the demand curve intersect at a single price, which then allows a transaction to occur. '
The trade isn't allowed to affect the sp or any data which may be used to determine the sp.
Angersharkz,
you make a good point, It stood out like a dogs b******s . And yes to your other questions.
simx thanks for the further detail. Lets see if it gets claimed by anyone today/tomorrow. Interesting set of circumstances created to allow it to be executed.
AS was probably a 50/50 guess and would have been more interesting if it had been Vesa. I haven't looked at the numbers in the RNS carefully. Do they add up to an additional £15m if not perhaps we may also see a reduction in their short reported tonight.
Angersharkz can you explain the principal of going long and short at the same time as I've never got it, isn't that the same as being outside of the share completely ? I've been in this business about 10 years and I still cannot fathom this
Why do people here ask advice of strangers when it's not difficult to find a factually correct answer by DYOR.
The individual asked on this occasion does to his credit respond acknowledging a lack of expertise. He also if memory serves me correct explained approx 12 months ago that he was quite new to investing.
When you are investing surely it's imperative to be correctly informed. Therefore once again DYOR. Then if it goes pear shaped you only have yourself to blame.
AS you could be right and I am trying to recall what happened last time round when we sank to £1.19. I do remember there were many twists and turns and the shorts did go up and down on a regular basis and it may also have been around a dividend payment time interim or full. I honestly don't think the shorts are done yet, if they, as many do expect IA to happen and we see a drop in SP unlikely they will pass up another opportunity. Looking at the holdings RNS as far as I can see it definitely comes no where close to the £15m buy looks more like £5m if I am not duplicating some figures, CFD etc Perhaps more news to come on that buy.
I was hoping he had seen the error of his ways after the slating he got after his last post . This forum has actually been a nice place to be the last week whilst he hasn't been posting. I had hoped he would come back a changed man, but by the looks of your reply to him he's just doing the same old sad posts . Such a sad individual.
Thanks AngerSharkz, I only just remembered I'd posed the query hence my delay.
Strange retort by Redceo, I wasn't asking for advice I was asking for an opinion (I've been in the game 10 years so otherwise well versed), I'll certainly use the option of avoiding yours though thanks for the heads up
So say for example Blackrock went short at 300 with 1000 shares and another entity (or same entity) goes long at 300 with 1000 shares, long would be around 13% down while short is up around 15%. Your quote "It doesn’t matter which way this stock moves they are going to make money either way" isn't true well at least not in the above example - unless the long continues to average down assuming the sp will hike eventually and the shorts close in the meantime at what they see as a low then yes eventually they have made money both ways.
FTR I bought back in today at 2.66 having sold out before Xmas, figured that divi will see buyers and bad news priced in/oversold. gla
Everything about redco is strange but don't get drawn into an argument with him , that's exactly what he wants , and anyone that calls him our on his bs is just called a troll even though he now seems to have been outed as the resident board troll . I have found the best solution is ro just filter him out . Its bliss .
its just wrong on so many levels that ii's like blackrock have so much buying power and weight to move the share price down on a short, get the SP to their favoured buy in price then buy in, then start reducing the short position and let the share price rise. I am sure there are so FCA rules to this which are well muddied and easily navigable, all we do is jump on for the ride.
AngerS
The shorters pay the dividend while their short position profit increases by the same amount, in theory costing them nothing.
Just done a quick sum, which I hope is correct, please check and point out any errors.
Total RMG shares = 956,000,000
Blackrock short = 1.99%
Number of shares in Blackrock short = 956,000,000 x 0.0199 = 19,024,400
Number of shares in the Buy = 5,663,000
= 29.8% reduction.
I'm either very wrong, or this is a huge reduction in the Blackrock short position. If it's the former, you won't hear from me for a while.
Angersharkz, thanks for the info. We do know blackrock's short position is 19,024,400 shares, and on the 4th July they bought 5,663,000 shares.... so a proportionately significant buy. Could this be the preparation for another assault on the current sp of 267.7 ?
I have a question about short selling.
I realised that this sounds implausible and possibly illegal, but is it possible that the "buying" department of BlackRock are then allowing the "shorting" department of BlackRock to "borrow" these shares either with or without commission. This would then allow them to manipulate the short interest tracker which in turn could potentially sway the SP?
Perhaps useful :-
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/trading-investing/long-and-short-positions/
I don't know the answer to Oli's question but I would have thought not as Blackrock will have to go through a broker just like anyone else.
Anger - your hatred of Blackrock and others is a bit much sometimes. They're making money for their shareholders, sure, but they're also making money for their clients. That includes the Royal Mail Pension Plan. For the year ended 31st March 2021 the plan had £8.837 billion of assets managed by Blackrock. You wanting them to fail basically means you're prepared to accept this particular pension scheme to fail thus screwing up the tens of thousands of current and ex-posties that rely on it now or in the future. I have no idea what pensions you have but check who's managing them as there's a chance you have some money under Blackrock's control as well.
And shorting doesn't always make money - remember back in 2020 RM was shorted by nearly 10% in August. The price was lower than £2 a share. Despite the huge amount of shorting the price started going up and kept going for months. The shorters had no impact on the price and they all closed their positions fairly rapidly. Did they all make money? Were there some losses? Only they'll know.
If you go on Betfair Sports it's the same principle. Some will bet on, for example, Nadal to win a tennis match, some will bet on Djokovic. You can pick any side you want and, if you time it right, you can guarantee yourself a profit no matter what the outcome. If you're confident in your choice then why worry that others are betting against you?
RG "The shorters had no impact on the price and they all closed their positions fairly rapidly."
In fact RG the shorters needed to buy in order to close their shorts. Them doing so rapidly assisted the SP in clawing its way up.
You make good points regarding the shorters. Many place their saving with such Companies "where there's muck etc"
Redceo, many thanks for the link. I have read the article and will continue my research when time permits.