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"I think the whole process is designed to be as complicated as possible to encourage holders to give up ."
I don't think the intention is to blackpill us shareholders. Tax is complex and has unnecessary bureaucracy. But that aint KMR or your brokers fault nor should the intention be to impact share price. Didn't someone say on the forum about relocating KMR HQ to another tax domicile?
I understand QI and AWA brokers/shareholders are fully exempt from IWT which means the dividend distributed should be in full. If IWT has been applied, as in your circumstance, then you will need to reclaim the withholding tax when you file your annual tax return with HMRC. You need to get a tax voucher from your broker to do this. Due to double taxation treaty the revenue work out the reclaim from Irish Tax Authorities. This doesnt apply to SIPP holdings since the broker is the beneficiary. Ideally in this scenario, the broker should apply for exemption. WRT the 15%: I think this only applies if your individual name in on the register. In most cases of UK brokerage nominee accounts are used and therefore it is the broker. Possibly, maybe, I am no expert in these matters.
This form would suggest a full exemption....
https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/documents/dwt/dwt-non-res-v2a.pdf
I think the whole process is designed to be as complicated as possible to encourage holders to give up .
Tep - I've read the same link as you about max 15% which is Saga's point. I've pasted below a para from your previous post:
""Hargreaves Lansdown did make an attempt to obtain reduced rates of tax at source for our Irish stock holders. Our application was rejected by the registrars as we were not considered to be a ‘relevant person’ i.e. a resident in Ireland or a qualifying intermediary (QI) or authorised withholding agent (AWA).""
Question:
Is it your understanding, that had their application not been rejected the rate of tax would have been less than 15%? The reason I ask is that their is a very long list of QI,s & AWA's in the Irish Authorities website. HL also mention the ability to claim back 25% so if they had been a QI/AWA could they have claimed back the full 25% ?
HSBC have confirmed to me this morning that my holding (and anyone else on here who deals through HSBC) is held in the Associated Nom Co - HSBC Client Holdings Nominee (UK) Ltd. HSBC could easily submit a claim being an AWA but they have confirmed that this is not a service they provide which is strange seeing as they are already on the list of AWA's. I am by no means a major shareholder but my holding is large enough for the IWT to be impacting me by several thousand pounds per annum. I have raised a formal complaint with HSBC and will take it to The Ombudsman if necessary but I'm not very hopeful.
A maximum of 15% IWT applied to dividends of shareholders of UK residency.
http://uklegal.ie/double-taxation-relief/#:~:text=The%20Double%20taxation%20treaty%20provides,%2C%20the%20rate%20is%205%25.
Am I correct that the IWT is 25% and that within the terms of the Double Taxation Agreement, it should only be 15% for a UK resident? Therefore the tax which has been overpaid is the difference, 10%, or am I misleading myself?
@candidinvestor: My holdings are within SIPP. Consequently your broker acts as the trustee and they are unable to or won't pursue the rebate from Irish Revenue. I don't quite understand why. This is my broker response to my email about a year ago which I deemed unsatisfactory (see below). IWT can be pursued retrospectively. You need a tax letter from HMRC declaring your tax residency. I assume at this stage once ownership is transferred when I retire I can reclaim at this stage or if indeed the broker is able to change their procedures so they intend to claim on your behalf. I hope it helps.
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Unfortunately there is no European wide facility available to HL to reduce the withholding tax burden to clients holding shares in Europe.
Each European country has a different and sometimes complex tax regime/rebate procedures. For this reason we do not offer a service to claim foreign withholding tax (apart from US and Canadian) but do provide supporting documentation for clients who wish to pursue a claim for withholding tax for shares held in non SIPP products.
At present the Irish withholding tax is 25% and can be claimed from the Irish Revenue for dividends paid into HL ISAs/Fund & Share accounts, but this must be done by the beneficial owner of the shares. We will provide our client’s letters supporting their claim and a tax voucher of our pooled nominee holding. I believe you will be able to download the form from the Irish Revenue website (link below):
https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/documents/dwt/iref-withholding-tax-claim-form.pdf
In our experience the Irish Revenue will require a copy of the original tax voucher which can take several months to obtain from the registrar as a fee needs to be sent by Hargreaves Lansdown (this will be covered by us) to cover the administration costs.
With reference to SIPP products, Hargreaves Lansdown acts as the trustee and is viewed as the legal owner of the shares with the client as the beneficial owner.
This therefore means that claims for foreign withholding tax within a SIPP, must be completed by Hargreaves Lansdown.
Hargreaves Lansdown did make an attempt to obtain reduced rates of tax at source for our Irish stock holders. Our application was rejected by the registrars as we were not considered to be a ‘relevant person’ i.e. a resident in Ireland or a qualifying intermediary (QI) or authorised withholding agent (AWA).
At this point in time, we do not offer a complete foreign withholding tax reclaim service at present. This is in accordance with our Terms and Conditions for your account (covered by section A9).
However, the position is under regular review.
We have the right to reclaim the IWT
The issue may be that the Nominee doesn’t or cannot provide the granular detail on an individual basis require to reclaim the IWT.
II do provide individual data on IWT in the ISA but not the SIPP therefore I need to request the detail from the Nominee which I am not hopefully they will easily provide.
I am not an expert on withholding tax , but my investment is held within a Sipp , does this make any difference to my eligibility of a reclaim of WHT ...does anyone know ?
Cantango...I agree with you re the debt position which is why I remain invested . The point I was making was the apparent behaviours of the market in general , not what you and I believe . I do think the market will catch up , and yes the share price will no doubt pick up as the dividend approaches ..frequently a zero sum game though , as the share price often falls by the amount of the dividend
I also agree that the RCF is a back up facility rather than a loan , interest rates are high though , and you only need a double whammy of commodity prices falling ,capex significantly overspending ( already increased from £272 million to £340 million I think , and the picture becomes less favourable. Add into the mix an uncontrollable factor , like lightening , power cuts or political interference and the risks become clear and evident
All companies carry risk though , but the difference regards Kenmare is that they commence this transition period with a cash positive balance sheet , and operations which generate lots of cash too ...and they can vary the dividends up or down
For me though , in the absence of all other things remaining equal , my view remains that Kenmare is significantly under valued , and the illiquidity of the shares compounds the problem
OK, thanks. So well nigh impossible for holders in my position or you with your SIPP.....
Yes plus aegis before Christmas… had a look this morning and titanium prices seem to be moving up again
Great to have a new name of the significant shareholding list.
I hope you are going to keep buying…
Fingers crossed 🤞🏻 the selling is over and we see continued SP appreciation into ex-div date.
Good Luck to everyone, including our new friends pageant Investments Limited.
Interactive investor say their Nom Co may be able to provide me with advice but they cannot request it.
Jeremy Dibb told me how to get certificate of residence which I have - and was simple.
Getting other documents from Interactive Investor is easy, simple request over app.
I’m waiting for next Dividend to request IWT for last 4 years before claiming.
I’ll try the Nom for SIPP then but honestly not hopeful.
Contango - thanks for that, very helpful. Apologies if you think I am being pedantic but I want to have as much information as possible before challenging HSBC/Kenmare/Irish Tax Authorities. I'm also sure there will be a number of people on here keen to hear your thoughts/advice.
Like part of your holding, mine is through a Nom Co. If Jeremy Dibb can assist, why don't you go down that route with your SIPP position.
I guess what I'm asking is, is it well nigh impossible to reclaim it if not held in an individual account?
Thanks
It is simple for my ISA as it is an individual account. My SIPP is not possible as it is held through a nominee account and tax is aggregated hence I will sell my SIPP position first.
Apologies, simple is unfair…. It is simple if your provider can give you an individual statement showing IWT paid, then it is a simple submission and reclaim.
If you phone Jeremy Dibb he can assist as he has successfully reclaimed them.
My holdings through HSBC. I tried a few years ago and they weren't at all helpful. I think I'll have another go at them. I'd be interested to know if anyone on here has been able to claim it back, especially Cont, seeing he reckons its simple. Maybe I'm going about it the wrong way.
Onwards - Many thanks. I was hoping for a new route other than having to set up an EI tax reference. Save it for a rainy day!!
Saga - far from "simple". Good luck !!!!
https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/documents/dwt/dwt-claim-for-refund.pdf
Con - Which website?
Agree on illiquid markets…. Have stated I expect a strong upward more before ex-div date.
Totally disagree with debt… it is a RCF to ensure the project is not constrained by balance sheet cash and that dividends can continue to be paid as WCP mines its way to new location.
The company will not use the full facility and it will be very lowly leveraged with small net debt position at worst.
If you are UK based you can reclaim the Irish Withholding tax. There is a link on the website. You need proof of dividend and IWT paid plus proof of residence in the UK, it is simple.
The illiquid market is a double edged coin ..just as the price falls disproportionately during a selling cycle , it will also rise disproportionately during a buying cycle , so from this point of view , you just have to be patient and wait for sentiment to reverse itself
The key thing with Kenmare is the fundamentals ..at today's prices there are generous dividends on offer, yet they only take up around 30% of after tax profits .
Yes there are the usual macro economic factors to consider , but I think the level of debt that they will be taking on in the next few years is making investors a little cautious
The one element that angers me and prevents me from investing more into Kenmare is the 25% withholding tax on dividends from the Irish Government ...this is a huge deterrent for shareholders to take on the equity risk with this company....does anyone know, why the hell they registered the company in Ireland in the first place ..on the face of it , a very shareholder unfriendly decision to make
For me though , the long term fundamentals seem good, and the capex is to boost productive capacity so the spend is well worth it.
Time will tell
Worth a read on bloomberg business (free to sign up) - John Authers "Magnificent or Marxist? Passive investing is back on trial" .. both reassuring and alarming but explains why value managers/stocks like KMR are in the doldrums
Which funds hold Kenmare to any significance though?
Fund managers of open ended funds hold many shares and choose which of them to sell, they don't have to sell KMR, and why would they?
Individual shareholders are of course a difference kettle of fish.