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@Kahuna
I am also keen to converse re MARS, I recall you posted recently about how bad trade was for pubs in the square mile.
The only MARS property there which I am aware of is Pitcher Piano Cornhill, which is a great location and nicely furnished but always, I felt, let down by its food offer. However I see that between now and next Thursday they have 3 "special nights", 2 are speed dating evenings and the other is a "paint London" night. Also they are now rather optimistically offering food via deliveroo. Now I am delighted to see a pro active stance by management in trying to put bums on seats, but 3 special nights in the next 6 is probably indicative of just how bad trade actually is at present.
I fully realise the P&P's are not the typical Marstons boozer but they were up for sale last year in the debt reduction attempt and failed to achieve an acceptable price. If trade is this poor what is their value now I wonder, WFH seems to have hit city centres more than we suspected it would.
KJ-The links previously supplied are to the official web site. Worth a look and good luck at :-
https://www.marstons.co.uk/news/
You can scroll through the latest Beer news, and corporate news. Also for the other side of the JV look at the carlsberg site :-
https://www.carlsberggroup.com/newsroom/carlsberg-forms-joint-venture-with-marston-s-plc-in-the-uk/
this squabble is of no interest to anyone else and has sucked all of the oxygen out of the board. You have made some interesting points but are now going nowhere.
I'd really like to get some constructive insight into the company I'm invested in please.
Unfair trade - No one reads yours words carefully. You have shown your cards as a shorter or someone who never sees upside. The agreement is in place for five years (if approved) and the exit rights are actually there to protect those signed in to the agreement should something change like Carlsberg have a change of ownership. You always look for the slightest snippet of anything negative and are on to it like a rash. I do not see the exit strategy applying in any case as if approved the JV will be a complete success.
I actually said Marstons supply over 2,000 pubs they own 1400 but they actually have over 11,000 customers in fact I down played the number of pubs as it is insignificant when they also unlike most other brewers do not just supply their own pubs but many other retail outlets (not just supermarkets). With the Carlsberg deal the numbers are likely to double and that is why collectively both companies see tremendous upside. It is a shake you cannot see this too. Harping back to small points no one is interested in. You need to look at the bigger picture.
@Fairdealer
This was a great single by the Stones but we are here to discuss Marstons, not Mick, and our rather erratic & probably disturbed midnight rambles by Tesla man are possibly induced by excess consumption after curfew ?
Sadly it seems he is incapable of sensible discourse, nor keeping to the subject and the constant carpings re Royal Dutch Shell are a good example. I am sure there are others on this board that are also wanting sensible discussion, not recycled fake facts and hearing about his "exclusive" access to info from Wolverhampton HQ ?
Hopefully he is filling his Tesla boot with cheap shares today to keep the price up for us all ?
read my words and the JV very carefully and please don't invent.
Business Plan, Deadlock and Exit section of JV states:-
" there are additional exit rights which apply in respect of certain trigger events. These include : (i) aCarlsberg UK call option in the event of change of control, insolvency, Material Breach of the Supply Agreement, a Sale of more than half of Marston's existing pub estate ( a "Major Disposal") or a default by Marston's; (ii) a Marston's put option in the event of change of control or default by Carlsberg UK ; and (iii) a Marston's call option in the event of Carlsberg UK insolvency."
Appreciate as you are unable to understand the difference between 1400 and 2000 and recently 1st and 6th, figures are a challenge, and to help "half " ( as expressed in the JV) is 50%
Facts are always better than fiction !
This is going to be the new portfolio under the JV -Enough beers for CAMRA? Or even Fairtrader?
The Carlsberg Marston’s Brewing Company will have a strong portfolio of international, national and regional beer brands. Carlsberg’s brands include Carlsberg Danish Pilsner, Carlsberg Expørt, Poretti, Tetley’s, Somersby cider and the London Fields Brewery craft portfolio, as well as the UK licence for San Miguel, Mahou and the Brooklyn Brewery craft beer portfolio. The Marston’s portfolio includes Hobgoblin, Wainwright, Marston’s Pedigree and 61 Deep, and the company also owns the Banks’s, Jennings, Ringwood and Eagle beer brands. It also has the UK licence for global brands Estrella Damm, Shipyard, Erdinger, Warsteiner and Kirin. - Think of the Christmas variety box one could buy this Christmas from the "super" markets!!
Unfairtrader you are incorrect again and talk utter nonsense. Marstons retain 100% ownership of their own pubs as they are not part of the JV agreement which is as I have said on the brewing and distribution interests of Marstons in partnership with Carlsbergs -Marstons also gain in the "joint venture" additional interests from Carlsberg.. You talk as if Marstons are losing something when they are also gaining something i.e. Interest in Carlsberg Brewing and distribution plus cash whilst still owning all of the Pubs that they own already. You really have missed the point and not Ralph Findlay's comments that the deal enables him to concentrate on running the Marstons Pub estate whilst reducing debt (this is the existing Company) the JV formed from Management from both sides is to run the Brewing and Distribution side separately and the only Aspect of the Pubs that Carlsberg will gain is access to the supply agreements in place but nothing to do with their ownership which belongs to shareholders and the money lenders, etc. The agreement if deemed approved is at first for five years. You talk with no supporting docs to what you feel has been said and f you can supply us with where it says what you feel is said we can correct you. Otherwise we will have to leave you in your dream world or shell but please avoid RD Shell as it was reported today they hit a 25 year low. This is another release which may help you understand :-
Under the terms of the transaction, Carlsberg Marston’s Brewing Company will also have access to
Marston’s pub estate for its beer portfolio which is enshrined through a strategic, long-term supply
and distribution agreement.
Carlsberg UK and Marston’s PLC will be the sole stakeholders in Carlsberg Marston’s Brewing
Company, with Carlsberg UK being the majority shareholder, owning 60% of the equity. Current
Carlsberg UK Managing Director, Tomasz Blawat, will be appointed CEO of Carlsberg Marston’s Company, with current Marston’s PLC CEO, Ralph Findlay, appointed as Non-Executive
Chairman; and Richard Westwood, current Managing Director of Marston’s Beer Company,
appointed as Chief Operating Officer, Integration. The completion statement mentions the ownership which is highlighted below (don't get this confused with the exit strategies for default of change in Carlsberg ownership. "Key terms of the Transaction Financial • On Completion, the Joint Venture will acquire Marston’s Brewing Business for up to £580
million, of which Marston’s Brewing Business will use £312 million to subscribe for a 40 per
cent shareholding in the Joint Venture, meaning that Marston’s will receive gross proceeds of
up to £273 million in cash as the balance in the form of an Equalisation Payment (which is
subject to the “normalised” working capital and debt free / cash free adjustments referred to
above, £5 million of other adjustments and the deferred contingent payment set out below)" -you will note the Brewing business does not include t
Read the JV agreement properly. It specifically states Marstons MUST retain at least 50% of their Pub Outlets. If you are unable to see the fine print suggest you consult an optician.
Let others judge who is fake. A poster who cannot find 600 pubs he claimed Marstons owned. A poster who claims Marstons are the Biggest Brewer in the UK ( actually they are 6th), or a Poster who is consistent in facts facts reported.
Anyone who listens to a blaggard who cannot answer a simple question about the Company he pretends to know all about will be lead the uninformed astray. End of.
For the record unfairtrader you have it wrong again on the JV ownership. This only relates to the Brewing and Distribution assets as Ralph Findley has said on many occasions this will enable Marston's to now concentrate on its Pub.Hotel,wine bar ownership. (Carlsberg at this stage has not requested any part of this). The Carlsberg official web said this, as you have to understand access and ownership are two totally different things. Most of Marstons customers are owned by third parties. :-
Under the terms of the proposal, the joint venture will have access to the Marston’s pub estate for its beer portfolio through a long-term strategic partnership. Marston’s operates around 1,400 pubs. The joint venture will benefit from Marston’s Beer Company’s wide distribution network. Marston’s Beer Company distributes to around 11,000 customers directly, including the independent free trade, other pub companies, the off-trade and export.
Link to the Carlsberg web :-
https://www.carlsberggroup.com/newsroom/carlsberg-forms-joint-venture-with-marston-s-plc-in-the-uk/
CEO Cees ’t Hart says: “The creation of the joint venture is an important step forward for our UK business. The joint venture’s brand portfolio will allow us to offer a significantly stronger beer portfolio to our UK customers, and at the same time extend distribution into the Marston’s pub estate. In addition, the combined business will bring our customers wider choice, greater capacity, product innovation, and marketing and distribution efficiency benefits.”
Unfairtrader you really need to read the "official release on the Marstons official web site" and not your comic papers. There is nothing fake at all as I have simply copied across from the public document the paragraphs to which show your reporting to be as unreliable as your share choices.
To make your life easier here is the link to the "official doc" you need to read 2nd paragraph down of page 4, the rest you will find later in the doc. Sorry but the only fake here is what you say to clear this up see Link attached :-
https://www.marstons.co.uk/docs/jv/2020/Marstons_PLC_forms_JV_Partnership_with_Carlsberg_UK_220520.pdf
Lord help us , CMBC will have sole rights to external distribution, not Marstons who will remain a Pub/Motel entity and are bound by the JV agreement too retain at least 50% of Pub /Beer Outlets owned/Managed at the time of Agreement Completion.
Marstons will have a 40% share of CMBC
More tosh and fake news. Anyone who knows anything about the "Beer Order" knows even tied Pubs are allowed to obtain and sell at least One beer from an outside Brewery. The concern is Carlsberg will close down this provision by claiming there beers (imported) are "Guest Beers". The CMA will adjudicate.
Incidentally Supermouth I have NO shares in Shell sold at £25 some time ago, but if you are interested at current levels they are paying a handsome dividend ( over 14%) . get some quick it will top up your meagre Pension.
As far as predicting the SP here it will have difficulty climbing above the Mid 50's whilst there is so much uncertainty within not just the Economy but the sector as a whole. At the moment MARS SP is under pinned by the last reported NAV so any talk of £1 in the near future is complete nonsense. As Warren Buffett often says " price is what you pay value is what get".
The market clearly believes the SP here is fairly priced and can only move once a number of factors are clarified. JV approval, Debt reduction plan, future trajectory for the Company after the Brewing Arm has been hived off.
At present the market does not know where Marstons are headed, much like many other companys.
Supertramp are you still pondering over the number of Pubs manged by Carlsberg in the UK., or don't you know much like the phantom Hostelries owned/managed by Marstons that you continued to publish and not validate.
Lets have your account of the number of Pubs owned/Managed by Carlsberg in the UK. If you do'nt know just keep quiet.
The announcement from Marstons refers to the JV agreement for exclusive supply only to Marstons retained Pubs :-
"A long term supply and distribution agreement will be put in place as part of the Transaction, pursuant
to which the Joint Venture will exclusively supply and distribute drinks and related services to
Marston’s retained pub business on a third party arm’s length basis (the “Supply Agreement”). CMBC
will have multiple sites across the country and is intended to be headquartered in Wolverhampton." HOWEVER Marstons also refers to " Currently, Marston’s distributes to c.11,000 customers directly including the
independent free trade, other pub companies, the off-trade and export" and so the agreement does not have to have any affect at all on the non -retained business. I also see Marstons being able to open up sales across Europe through Carlsberg European connections later and this will help the Company tremendously "post" Brexit with this reciprocal agreement giving the combined group an advantage to both Companies. A "super" fully charged agreement.
I understand and agree to some extent but these
Pop up Pubs need suppliers and the microbrewers fit nicely into that market.
I travel quite often to the U.K from France and every time I go to my home town there is a new pub in an old shop premises. I bet if I spoke to the landlord of the large Yates pub then he would have more concerns about how that is impacting his footfall rather than the JV of two major brewers.
I suppose your opinion and mine are very similar to the discussions the CMA are having.
Quite recently the CMA blocked a partnership between Asda and Sainsbury’s. Now we have Lidl and Aldi taking up market share and Asda gets sold iff to EG that give store space to exclusive bakers, fast food chain and coffee retailers.
Sainsbury’s a U.K. business is left out in the cold and losing ground to the likes of the co op and Aldi.
Regret Unfairtrader looks at the small detail that no one is interested in. Any Pub run as a free house can sell what they like. If The Pub is run and owned by the Brewer then it is obvious that their own beers will have a preference. He cannot predict the future no one can. If he did he would not be holding RD Shell shares where they just hit the lowest price for 25 yrs. We now need to look at what happened to the share price when the JV was first released (before the cycle clip brigade stirred up their cloudy beer) and that was a sudden increase to approx 73p which is where I predict we will sit for a while if approved and once the Astra/Zeneca vaccine comes (very soon by all accounts) we will be back up towards a quid! I have a feeling Camra should be investing in Halfords to be honest just in case a merger causes the loss of their penny fathings to electric bikes - keep charging!
leas I am sure a number of micro brewers are doing ok. I know one or two. The worry is for those who rely on pub outlets such as Marstons and others. and the impact the Carlsberg/Marston venture will have on those outlets currently controlled by Marstons. Ignore the noise as some have clearly not read the JV agreement. It is a combining of Breweries and NOT just distribution as some will have you believe. The JV clearly states Marstons are obliged to retain at Least 50% of their Pub Outlets otherwise they are in breach of the Agreement. Carlsberg want that retail access and clearly would have the ability to shut out other Brewers.
Does anyone know how many Pubs Carlsberg manage in the UK? No doubt Superman has the answer.
By the way, not a current share holder but have held in the past but still look in. I feel my view is as a neutral but Marstons has to evolve in order to survive. To block any JV will not be good for the sector. All it will do is give a bigger market share to companies like GK.
just my opinion of course.
FairD
Lots of micro pubs opening in Lancashire. All seem to be busy and popular. If and only if your scenario occurs then it would be the JVs that will suffer increasing footfall in the startup pubs with low operating costs.
In this Country we all have free voice as far as our own interests are concerned. Maybe Marstons should conduct a survey and see how many CAMRA drinkers are affected. I am sure the number will be a minority? Perhaps Carlsberg are commercially aware that in the past 30years more and more people have moved over to premium larger - who knows? I understand that in fact Marstons will keep the pubs seperate and the JV is only for distribution rights in anycase. However going forward Marstons have already made statements that they are not intending to cut any beers - so keep buying them and they will brew them - simple. They is no point at all producing a beer that is only drink occasionally by a few cyclists and hikers and when it goes off the majority has to be thrown away. if Marstons stop producing a beer perhaps they can sell the recipe to camra and they can make it themselves.
Leas and roll that dice. It is good to see some support here -I have been trying to promote us here and now the so called shorters down talking the share being Unfairtrader and Barchildren have an opportunity to sell (if they even own any shares).
The Marstons web refers to two instances of a new beers coming out soon and if CAMRA feel less will be sold they are mistaken. As I have said previously a whole lot less will be served if the unthinkable happens and Marstons do not survive. So perhaps if they want more Beers rather than moaning they should actually buy a large number of shares in support? Have any less beers been sold since Marstons has taken over so many other brewers? I don't think so. If Camra keep buying the beers then Marstons will keep brewing them. Simple - just keep buying the beers. Use it or lose it. IMHO.
My understanding as inferred in CAMRA representation is many independant and craft Brewers are concerned about their access to Marstons pubs will be limited even denied as Carlsberg will likely shut them out,.They ( Carlsberg) want control of Marston's pubs . The JV makes specific reference and possibly something the CMA will be looking at.
My understanding is the P1 stage of the CMA investigation will be concluded BY the 21st. So any announcement may come at anytime before then. I also understand from research that they cannot block the JV but delay it until a P2 investigation is conducted.
It is CAMRA that has stuck it's oar in with the following statement 'However, consumer group CAMRA (the Campaign for Real Ale) said today it harbours “serious concerns” about anti-competitive effects of the JV, including “market foreclosure for small brewers, which will reduce choice for beer drinkers and pub-goers”.
“This is why the CMA must make sure that any merger does not stifle fair competition, access to market for brewers,?and ensure decent consumer choice of beer in pubs up and down the country,” CAMRA chief executive Tom Stainer said.'
Surely the CMA will look at this but competition will be stifled anyway with this pandemic and the only way of keeping pubs open and brewers profitable is by cutting costs.
This is one of my best investments - easy 100% uplift coming soon