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Hi Tornado,
Wouldn't be so confident about the findings of any company analysts , especially not the corporate ones who seem to have for whatever reason overlooked so much in the past!
Not just Centamin ,all the miners are less than truthful with shareholders when it suits!
Never does any harm people like Cowichan asking questions, keeps them on there toes and if they have nothing to hide then they will gladly answer the questions!
Likewise Paul!
Thanks for that. I'd still appreciate Cowichans thoughts on it and maybe a correction of his original posting?
I’ll let you in on a secret Paul, I have 35 years of experience as a chartered accountant to draw on, you can safely assume I know my way around a financial report :)
If the Egyptian Government/Central bank was running off with with $80M odd Centamin monies we would have every Centamin analyst all over it like the measles.
What do you reckon Cowichan ? Is Spoonington reading it right?
Hi Spoonington,
Thanks for confirming that.
Best wishes,
Prof
Hi Prof
The footnote figures simply provide the net receivable/payable position at a particular date so:
At 30 June 2023 CBE owed CEY $16,062
At 30 June 2022 CBE was owed $42,922 by CEY
At 31 December 2022 CBE owed CEY $23,681
These just reflect normal movements in net positions between parties who engage is such trading arrangements much the same as any commercial credit account between a supplier and a customer.
Cheers
Spoon
Morning Spoonington,
Thank you for the correction. Mea culpa - I was going through the numbers through the prism of Cowichan's concern and missed the key point that you make.
Do you agree however with the rest of my reading?
Best wishes,
Prof
You guys need to get some lessons in reading financial statements!
The ‘000 meaning thousands only apply to the columns they appear above not the footnotes. The footnotes are in actual dollar amounts so the amounts outstanding are hardly of any concern.
Sorry to spoil your pointless bickerings, you seemed to be enjoying yourselves :)
Good Morning Cowichan,
Thanks for raising this potential issue. I have just looked at the July interim report and I read it differently to you.
To me it looks like each of the numbers that you quote is the snapshot at that point in time of the amount owed by CBE. So based on the sentence from page 38 (section 4.1) that you refer to:
'At 30 June 2023 the net receivable in EGP owing from the Central Bank of Egypt is approximately the equivalent of
US$16,062 (30 June 2022: US$42,922 net payable and 31 December 2022: US$23,681 receivable).'
my understanding, given that it says 'net receivables' is that $42.9M was owed on 30 Jun 22, that this had reduced to $23.6M by 31 Dec 22 and then further reduced to $16M by 30 Jun 22). In other words the amount owed by CBE is reducing not increasing and we should not be adding the numbers together to get $82.6M.
Para 4.1 also says :
'the parties may jointly elect, on a monthly basis, for the CBE to supply SGM with its local Egyptian currency requirements
for that month '
which also gives me confidence that my reading is correct as why would SGM continue to 'elect' if CBE were racking up increasing debt to SGM.
I would be grateful to hear if you think I am getting this wrong.
Best wishes,
Prof
Cowichan
Have you looked at previous annual reports. In 2018 the figures on receivables were similar. The June interim report has a difference of some $16M at that time. I other words the accounts have always had an exchange going on between the two entities. Tony
Major European indexes increased in premarket trading on Thursday amid as investors digested the news that Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin was presumably killed in a plane crash. Market watchers also continued to focus on the BRICS summit in South Africa and awaited the start of the Jackson Hole symposium, where numerous Federal Reserve officials are set to speak over the next couple of days.
The Euro Stoxx 50 climbed 0.66% at 8:01 am CET, the DAX rose 0.46%, the CAC 40 gained 0.33% and the FTSE 100 was up 0.38% at the same time.
The euro added 0.07% against the dollar to go for 1.08708 at 8:00 am CET and the pound was flat compared to the US currency, selling for 1.27267 at the same time.
Baha Breaking News (BBN) / NP
I think the hedges cost $6m for 120k oz at $1900. If so that is $50 an ounce, a huge amount to pay for a hedge for just these 6monthns as ends by December just to have flexibility, for a company with lots of cash? There is always the possibility Cowichan is right just as Kees was all those years ago. Cowichan how does Emma owe Cley money, and can they ever get it back by reducing royalty payments? Maybe you could get one of the analysts to ask the question at the next figures presentation just to see. If you are right?
The bankers certainly do know - thus Centamin was forced to hedge their forward gold sales thru the purchase of puts - a condition of line of credit approval
analysts - love to hear how valuable you think they are
investors - they are pinning all hope on gold and goodwill towards Centamin management
independent auditor - I have submitted a formal complaint and await outcome
company's accountant - does as instructed
technically Centamin has put the amount in arrears in the reports as a footnote - the problem is allowing the total to balloon over the last 3 years - and that without flagging as a potential impairment going forward
Fair comments Mr Gnome,
But then there still needs to be some better explanation and clarification of these issues by the company , it may help reassure the market and help the share price recover .
Far too many times in the past many times in the past those on your list seem to have failed to ask enough of the right questions!
Thanks you Cowichan!
The share price remains languishing in the sick bucket of the last chance saloon because market remains suspicious that as in the past not all is as well as claimed by the management!
https://www.centamin.com/media/2980/cey-rns_1h23-interims_final_250723_website.pdf
So I take it you find it amazing that the followig do not check what you have pointed out. Briefly they be
1. Companies accountants
2. Independenct auditors
3. Bankers
4. Analysts
5. Investors
Makes me wonder
the gnome
You find it startling.
You dont think others check, amazing.
Or simply a Bear Trap.
Why some may ask ?
The simple answer , supply and demand.
Also ,Dollar bonds pushing GOV debt ,adding to the negative , because of interest rate hikes , interest on bonds the cause.
The true debt ,now un-payable for generations.
The Symposium at Jackson , scaring the crap out of many small/medium Banks .
On bended knees, please Jerome ,no more rate hikes.
Or has the news already been leaked, to the insiders.
Goldgnome
I find it startling that shareholders on this forum are
a) unaware the CBE owes such a huge amount to Centamin
b) unwilling to look at the data themselves - and ask Centamin if the amounts in their own H1 report is accurate
the big IF is literally a click away for anyone willing to see for themselves, I don't publish these figures, Centamin does
it's the last two sentences on the last page (page #38) here: https://www.centamin.com/media/2980/cey-rns_1h23-interims_final_250723_website.pdf
But by all means let's talk about US president Biden instead, somehow that's far more pressing an issue and more relevant to investing in Centamin
I would imagine IF the figures are correct, then there would need to be additional notes inthe Fin Reports to describe the situation, especially if there is some doubt as to whether this is cash (defintion)
I think the independent auditors and regulators would take a strong interest in what is described as cash, and what is not...and certainly that has been the case in companies I have and still work for. Not a position one would want to get into.
As for the line of credit, there are a host of reasons a company would do this, including that it can provide additional optionality for business development, and be a backdrop insurance policy
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4628844-focus-on-gold-miners-cash-flow-not-earnings
the gnome
Goldgnome - I cannot disagree more
from 2022 annual report (report #1)
45 transactions have been entered into at the date of this report. At 31 December 2022 the amount receivable from Central Bank of Egypt is approximately US $23,681,000 (2021 : US $24,761,000 net payable)
from H1 interim report (report #2)
62 transactions have been entered into at the date of this report. At 30 June 2023 the net receivable owing from the Central Bank of Egypt is approximately US $ 16,062,000 (30 June 2022: US $ 42,922,000 net payable and 31 December 2022 US $23,681,000 receivable).
My Notes:
1) notice how the cumulative amount in arrears has grown in the first six months of 2023
2) notice how the amounts and dates have altered from report #1 to report #2
Something is not right. There is no reason the 2022 amounts should be split between June and December 2022. I have inquired to several entities in order to unscramble the mess that is the above gold purchase reporting by the Central Bank of Egypt via Centamin (including directly with PricewaterhouseCooper UK)
If the last report is an accurate account of how much the Central Bank of Egypt owes Centamin as of June 30, 2023 then it's a total of $82,665,000 million US dollars
And that doesn't include July or August 2023 'purchases' by the CBE
This means Centamin MAY NOT HAVE ANY cash on hand ( or approaching net zero cash )
Is this large arrears owing from the CBE the real reason Centamin has secured a $150 million line of credit ?
We know the banks forced Centamin to hedge to $1900 gold by purchasing monthly 'puts' - both actions of which cost Centamin shareholders millions in fees - but we don't know if the real reason is because Centamin is actually out of cash.
if anyone can get an answer out of Centamin as to how much the CBE owes them in total please post their reply on this forum for the benefit of all
A link to AISC
https://www.gold.org/goldhub/gold-focus/2022/07/aisc-gold-mining-industry-reached-their-highest-level-record-q122-0
Posted 14 July, 2022. 09:00
In Q1’22, all-in sustaining costs (AISC) increased by 9% q-o-q to reach US$1,232/oz – their highest level on record back to 2012. This was primarily driven by inflation of miners’ local input costs such a diesel prices, electricity tariffs, wage rates and consumable prices. This was exacerbated by a 4% q-o-q drop in average head grades1, which fell to 1.35g/t, alongside the strengthening of several local producer currencies to the US dollar over the period, which increases US dollar costs recognised in local currencies. These rising costs led to a 3% q-o-q contraction in average industry AISC margins, which fell to US$646/oz. That said, the decline was mitigated by a 5% q-o-q rise in the average dollar gold price. Margins in the gold mining industry have now fallen by 31% from their peak of US$938/oz in Q3’20. However, they still remain relatively high historically due to the continued strength in the gold price. For comparison, margins averaged $338/oz between 2012 and 2019...
best of luck to all
Do your own research, and keep your eye on the ball