Member Info for MrMath

If you're interested in knowing whether the 'Chris France' on this board is the same person as the director of planning at the North York Moors National Park you could always try emailing the real Chris France at

planning@northyorkmoors.org.uk

I'm not that bothered one way or another but my guess is that they are two different people since such behaviour seems somewhat unprofessional.

"Chairman and CEO spending another £1.5M between them."

"Where do you get £1.5M from?"

Mulder misread the RNS and calculated their total holding post announcement, which is about £1.548m.
The actual total purchase was about £376k.

"I've got some cash ready to go and am just waiting for this to stop falling every day before I buy back in."

Same here, but reckon it's going to fall a bit more yet. And there is strong broker disagreement over which direction it's headed.

Been keeping an eye on this one ever since they did my hip! But didn't buy in because the dividend is rubbish, which is not so relevant now as the capital growth will be far more significant from these levels.

"Actually the idiot from the FT might have done Sirius a favour."

This echos my post from last night. It did scare off a lot of the uninformed investors and has drawn attention to Sirius, which can only be a good thing in the long run. Looking forward to the £2 party.

"I wonder if the timing of the article was intentional to try disrupt any live credit committee or guarantee approval processes that are going on for ST2 right now."

Had similar thoughts. The agenda was clearly to try and damage the SP, but it was blatantly poorly researched (maybe with intention?) and any serious investor would have realised that after a few minutes googling.

With today's SP rise it could be that this article has actually back-fired and drawn more serious investor attention to Sirius. We'll finish up tomorrow too.

AjAjAj, the highest price was 52.5p (not 54.5p).

You can find it on Yahoo finance here (just scroll down to 23 Aug 2016):

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/quote/SXX.L/history?period1=1470610800&period2=1502146800&interval=1d&filter=history&frequency=1d

"I may regret selling."

You WILL regret selling.

I still remember very clearly when I sold SXX just before it rocketed and missed out on £140k. And I have forgotten about my losses.

Someone on this board posted that they had paid 49p. They don't have too long to wait before they are in profit (so long as they've held of course).

"August 2016 44.60p. Don't recall over 50p."

The highest SXX has reached is 52.5p on 23 August 2016.

Date Open High Low Close* Adj. close** Volume
23 Aug 2016 45.0000 52.5000 39.7310 42.2500 42.2500 103,870,151

52.5p will of course be broken WELL before the end of the year.

Unashamed ramp, but true: do not miss the 30s. Now is your chance. But not for much longer.

"100% debt on stage 2 and reckon we will trade around the 42p for a while."

The 4 is next to the 5 and only two keys from the 6, so I'll put that down to a typo Andy.

Thanks to the temporary drop I now own more shares!

I always get the urge to buy at moments like this. Maybe that's why I have made a shed load (for me) over the last few years.

It's climbing now.

Got tempted by the drop and bought another 68k shares. This is only going up long term.

"Maybe the stage 2 finance is already priced in?"

If Stage 2 finance was already settled as 100% debt there is no way the price would be as low as 40p. The anticipated announcement, plus the obvious long term profitable future, is why it's being bought into now. Production starts 2021, which is not that far away. The buying would go crazy if the SP was 40p after Stage 2 was settled!

PART 2: All this sounds great and it's the story we hear from those pushing SIPPs. But the above assumes that you have totally accessed all the money in your SIPP and that takes time, so it probably won't happen, whereas you have immediate access to the money in your ISA. How much money the instant access with no extra tax to pay is worth to you is not easy to quantify, but it is definitely worth something and maybe more than you think. Also, the above calculations show SIPPs in their best light since provider charges have been ignored and these tend to be slightly higher for SIPPs than for ISAs.

So let's look at a basic rate tax payer, when paying in, who wants to extract all the money from their SIPP. Hopefully, this won't happen, but sometimes people do want their money back, like now! Since they are taking it all at once, it will very likely be taxed at the higher rate. For every £1,200 originally invested they can extract

£10,500 = £3,750 + 0.6 x (£15,000 - £3,750) (£3,750 = £15,000 x 0.25, is your lump sum and the rest is taxed at 40%.)

That's £1,500 (or 12.5%) less than they would have had in an ISA! (Recall you would have had £12,000 in the ISA.)

So save money in a SIPP only when you are sure you will extract it in a controlled drawdown. ISAs are better for those who want the felxibility to take large sums of money immediately.

The situation is similar if you have some high yielding investments. Suppose you were a basic rate tax payer who invested in a SIPP and your investment has increased by a factor of 30. Since you now have a lot of money to extract you will very likely be a higher rate tax payer when you extract it. For every £1,200 originally invested you get back (note £45,000 = 30 x £1,500)

£31,500 = £11,250 + 0.6 x (£45,000 - £11,250). (£11,250 = £45,000 x 0.25, is your lump sum and the rest is taxed at 40%.)

In an ISA you would have had £36,000 = 30 x £1,200. So you have £4,500 (or 12.5%) less than you would have had in an ISA. And to add insult to injury your SIPP has annoying constraints on it. The general principle here is that it's better to max out the ISA with higher yielding investments before the SIPP.

You could draw down your very healthy SIPP at a lower rate to avoid higher rate tax, but then you have to consider what was the point of buying such high performing shares when you cannot freely access the money without paying damaging tax?

ISA v SIPP

Both investment vehicles grow free of CGT and income tax. The following calculations are to help you get a feel for these investments and necessarily cannot take into account personal circumstances and so for simplicity reasons providers charges, inflation, the personal allowance, …, have been ignored.

Let's look at what happens to every £1,200 invested in an ISA compared to the same invested in a SIPP. You get tax relief at your marginal rate in a SIPP, so with £1,200 you can buy £1,500 worth of shares in a SIPP if you are a basic rate tax payer and £2,000 worth if you are a higher rate tax payer.

Basic Rate Tax Payer (20%) Higher Rate Tax Payer (40%)

ISA £1,200 £1,200

SIPP £1,500 £2,000

Ok, so you bought some shares and they have increased in value by a factor of 10. Well done! Now you have for every £1,200 originally invested,

Basic Rate Tax Payer (20%) Higher Rate Tax Payer (40%)

ISA £12,000 £12,000

SIPP £15,000 £20,000

The money in the ISA is yours immediately without further tax to pay, but that in the SIPP will be taxed at your marginal rate. So if you decide not to take the 25% tax-free lump sum (bad decision) from your SIPP you can extract £15,000 x 80% = £12,000 if you are a basic rate tax payer and £20,000 x 60% = £12,000 if you are a higher rate payer. Exactly what you have in your ISA! No advantage and you've just tied up your money. That's why you must take the 25% tax-free lump sum.

But you are wise and decide to take the 25% tax-free lump sum from your SIPP. Here is what you can extract (the last column is for when you were a higher rate payer paying in but a basic rate payer now you are taking your pension).

Basic Rate Tax Payer (20%) Higher Rate Tax Payer (40%) Higher (40%) to Basic (20%)

SIPP £12,750 £14,000 £17,000

% increase v ISA 6.25% 16.67% 41.67%

The figures are calculated as follows:

£12,750 = £3,750 + 0.8 x (£15,000 - £3,750) (£3,750 = £15,000 x 0.25, is your lump sum and the rest is taxed at 20%.)
£14,000 = £5,000 + 0.6 x (£20,000 - £5,000) (£5,000 = £20,000 x 0.25, is your lump sum and the rest is taxed at 40%.)
£17,000 = £5,000 + 0.8 x (£20,000 - £5,000) (£5,000 = £20,000 x 0.25, is your lump sum and the rest is taxed at 20%.)

I said 45p by September. Not mid August!

"My plan was to buy in my ISA before selling in the SIPP. I will wait until the tax and fees are covered before selling as there is no rush to sell."

That's good approach with a share that's on the rise. Better than trying to trade it short term. However, it does present another obvious problem: you may become used to owning a greater number of shares than your ideal figure and not want to do the sell, and thus not diversifying but becoming more exposed to a single share.