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A draw it is suzy,the benefit of living in a democracy is we can all express our opinions and respect each other whilst voting in a 2nd past the post election 😅hope we have a good week next
Treetop ..Where would we be leaving it.... is that a draw then... 1 : 1 ?
Nighty night All x
My issue about liars is qualification suzy , it has been thrown at Brexit supporters by media and politicians without the detail. The only example that might stick is an amount of money claimed to save and spend on the NHS a figure based on rough guesswork that could be dissected with the power of calculation from a treasury department predisposed to reject. The outsiders campaigning were not allowed the luxury of that significant resource during the referendum campaign. May has lied during the negotiations and been called out for lying by several politicians wuthout contesting it. You can call others liars but I vehemently object to being classified as a liar,ignorant or stupid and such language has poisoned the Brexit debate. I have formed my views over 40 years having supported the EU until Heath admitted lying and looked more deeply into the matter. The suggestion we are all racist is often made and is a repulsive canpaign tool but we have avoided that accusation here.Shall we leave it there ?
Me too, glacial. Especially for his such a wise understanding and foresight what is awaiting to all British people if referendum result ignored and Brexit process stopped by politicians who have lost their honour and conscience.
I salute you.
Idealism is the currency of teenagers, in my opinion, and realism seems to me to be a more profitable pursuit for adults.
MPs voted to provide the electorate with an in / out referendum by a majority of 6:1, not because MPs wholeheartedly believe in democracy.
Quite the reverse.
They believed they could corral the electorate into voting to remain.
What MPs should have provided a referendum on was the Lisbon treaty, which surrenders all remaining autonomy still withheld from the EU. Autonomy and freedom which Hitler failed to wrestle from our grasp and which were preserved for, what we expected to be perpetuity at the cost of millions of lives.
The Lisbon treaty is the most pernicious document I have ever read as a resident of the U.K.
Should MPs succeed in dragging out the Brexit process until 2021 ( or engineering it’s cancellation ) when the Lisbon treaty will be enforced, then any potential consequences of Brexit will be dwarfed by the all consuming Uber federation to which we will then be enslaved.
Please read the treaty in full before saying anything more on this subject.
There are many paradoxes in this debate and one is that I'm not allowed to call people liars Treetop but you are....is that because the people I call liars are decent people and the people you call liars are not?
Just saying. Lol
Come on suzy,we have endured countless announcements predicting doom and gloom if we leave the EU,Cameron and Osborne stood on a platform and predicted Armagedon,they brought Obama to threaten us to the back of the queue if we left EU,the BBC announces everything good due to the EU and everything bad despite Brexit. The head of small business CBI had to resign when he contradicted their forecasts.Our Prime Minster and cabinet have told lies about observing the referendum and deceived the elctorate time after time.Open your eyes and ears.
The EU has a poor record of peace (NATO has preserved that in Europe) interfering in Libya via Cameron and Sarkozy,Syria and destabilising an elected government in Ukraine. The EU sent Baroness Ashton (effectively as foreign secretary in Brussels) to talk to the opposition party and gave them £65mn to funding and nearly caused a war with Putin. We prospered within an economic trading community,at no time have we ever had the opportunity to vote for the deeper political state integration which developed from Maastricht in 1992 and later in Lisbon. Blair campaigned on a referendum about Maastricht but reneged when he saw an opportunity for advancement of his ego. It has always been an intention for political unity (Heath admitted this in an interview with Robin Day after entry), if this is such a good idea we should be able to debate that concept,otherwise we need to get out of the deceit.
I admire your sentiment but lbjj deals in pragmatic realism and is closer to reality on this one.
Treetop...Either something is a lie or it is not. Opinions are a bit different, they're have an emotive content and we are all sometimes confused, ignorant and stupid. Take the slogans for instance, Project Fear (lifted by Boris Johnson from the Scottish Independence Referendum) suggests to the ignorant/stupid/confused that the other party is suggesting that there is something to be afraid about and if you're not a fearful sort of person then you should be on their side. And Let's get our Country Back and Let's get Control of our Country Back...suggests that we have lost control of our country,which I am strongly in contention with. Those slogans are not proper debate, with proper facts about proper issues. I'm sure the EU is not perfect, but it is an on going peace project and my belief and experience is that we have prospered in it.
A cute reply suzy but that also invalidates the accusations of lies thrown at Leave campaigners ,we will have millions more to throw at the NHS. The growth of our economy has continued since the referendum and the world economy outside EU has outstripped the EU so I am confident that would be increased once we remove EU tariffs that restrict our ability to trade with the world outside. The rank deceit we have had to endure must make a case for even more growth when business has the certainty of knowing where we stand.We need to respect each others opinion and refrain from calling decent peoplr ignorant,liars or stupid.
JT We do have plans for drilling this year I think...on K2 and Parkijaure, if we get our licences back.
Treetop....We're still in at the moment so how can you tell?
Indeed a Binary choice In or Out. Whilst the result was very clear (don't get fooled by percentages - the numbers tell the true story) the great and good of the land KNEW that what the people really wanted was the much more popular dance choice - Shaking it all about ( they nearly decided on the Okey Chokey but decided that would be a little too provocative for the punters)
Not sure about the effectiveness of having Anne as the poster girl but I'm sure it has some kinda for some (???? !!!!) then again double teaming with Nigel may go down well on the daytime TV circuit .
*sighs* drilling KS seems a life time ago.
Are they there yet?
Rare for me to agree with lbjj so clearly but he clearly understands what the referendum said. The frequent retort that leavers are fearful,confused,ignorant and stupid is the principle reason this debate has turned nasty. The government said clearly during the referendum that on treasury figures we would suffer 3% drop in gdp,500k less jobs and the chancellor would deliver an emergency budget the week after. The fear was ALL remain,we have had growth while europe is slipping into recession and youth unemployment across europe is in double figures. The ignorance is remainers falling for Project Fear. The establishment has steered the debate away from the political integration to a debate about the economy which has shown the treasury to be deceitful or incompetent.
lbjj, do you really think you can pull out a rope from the teeth of such a witch? No, way mate. She is even worse then this lioness, if she is clunging to the rope, she will rather tear her teeth off than give it to you. So, give her this rope to her and let to live in her such beloved EU zoo. Lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHki6YaDUs#action=share
Yes, it does....having an opinion and being prepared to stand up and fight for it is human arrogance....long may it reign.
Stupidity is equally distributed amongst remainders and brexiteers.
To infer that your own personal preference was voted down because all the stupid people didn’t agree with you displays it’s own arrogance.
Yes, exactly, there's the conundrum...the people we expect to be informed wanted a remain vote and had 100% confidence in getting that result: they failed miserably in presenting an informed debate and underestimated the power of fear, confusion, ignorance and stupidity.
The terms of engagement for the referendum could not have been more straightforward.
A binary in / out question, decided by a simple majority.
Of course, our political leaders both wanted a remain vote, and had 100% confidence in achieving that result.
That’s just routine political arrogance.
Because the electorate didn’t behave as expected, they should not be chastised and dragged to the ballot box in order to get it right next time.
Right for whom?
I think government by referendum is terrifying and confusing...how big does the majority have to be to instruct the government (that should have been decided beforehand) and how many voters three years on are dead or newly eligible to vote, which makes the playing field different? And democracy in it's most classical sense depends on an informed debate and there definitely wasn't one of those. What about the lies...were they not fear and confusion? And if it was 'democracy' to ask the people then, why isn't it democracy to ask them again now?
The referendum result instructed the government to get us out of the EU.There is nothing confusing or terrifying about that.
The fear and confusion has been conjured up by our jobsworth MPs who.
1. Are against Brexit in the majority ( 74% )
2. Incapable of anything other than towing the party line and feathering their own nests.
Their trump card is the progressive dumbing down of the electorate over the past 30/40 years.
Mark Twain famously said “ do you think politicians would allow us to vote if it actually made any difference.”
The cosy political duopoly in the UK, ensures that Mark Twain’s Question is indeed rhetorical.
I would say the chances of the U.K. leaving the EU are about as good as BEM, in it’s current guise, being awarded a mining concession for Kallak.
And you've got Ann Widdecombe! :-)
Ibjj But I would argue hopefully in a civilised and friendly way that the edifice of fear and confusion was erected by the Brexiters...for example I think the laws are made be Us not Them.
Relax.
The 482 MPs who voted to remain have it all in hand.
Helped enormously by the venerable BBC, whose anti Brexit bias is a disgrace. All 5 panellists on tonight’s Question Time voted to remain, as did Fiona Bruce.
Day by day, brick by brick an edifice of fear and confusion is being built to justify the ultimate aim of staying in the EU.
Revocation of article 50 is now openly spoken of, both here and in Europe.