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concerns now starting to be appreciated here in the UK
https://www.favershameye.co.uk/post/a-battery-of-scientific-evidence
I think the introductory paragraph gives you an idea of what it is about but nothing can prepare you for the videos that are embedded.
Cleve Hill has the potential to be one of the greatest environmental disasters ever. Lithium ion battery technology has never been tested on this scale. No one can say, for certain, that it is safe. All anyone knows for sure is that li-ion batteries spontaneously burst into flames and when they do, they produce copious volumes of one of the world’s most toxic gases, hydrogen fluoride as well as tiny amounts of an even more lethal gas, phosphoryl fluoride.
Every year, these batteries are being used to store ever increasing amounts of energy. The technology is relatively cheap, which is why manufacturers love it, but the science is undeniable. The greater the number of batteries, the greater the risk of fire and explosion.
The track record of lithium ion batteries is not good.
Because of these types of incidents, this country is littered with stable door legislation
It shouldn't be that way, how many lives does each white paper cost in human tragedy?
Despite living in the SE I had to google Cleve Hill, worrying stuff indeed.
It appears Kent Fire And Rescue think so too:
https://infrastructure.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/wp-content/ipc/uploads/projects/EN010085/EN010085-001751-GREAT%20-%20D7%20-%20Battery%20Storage.pdf
Pickle.
Your comment is stupid overall.
Vrfbs are not competing with lithium in cars and phones they are a commercial grade battery primary for large scale uses and when used for this purpose are much safer than lithium and much better for environmental purposes.
Now considering that Vrfbs are a newer technology they can certainly replace lithium at some stage for the right use the same way lithium replaced lead batteries.
Not sure who’s been fear mongering besides dare I say it, you.
PG - accept your point; however, we are now seeing L-ion batteries of a scale not seen before. There is a fragility to L-ion that needs to be acknowledged - particularly when considering this technology at a massive scale.
More relevant, on a day to day basis, is perhaps the controls required to keep L-ion cells safe, such as cooling systems and additional tech which impact performance and suitability for some uses. Coupled with the under-discussed aspect of degradation of performance in the relatively short-term as the L-ion battery ages.
I believe there is a place L-ion in the matrix of energy storage solution but there are clearly situations, environments, applications and locations where VRFB is just better (and likely vice versa). Therefore, in the interests of the planet, the compelling capabilities that VRFB offers needs wider and louder discussion. L-ion currently already has that sort of profile.
Bottom line, if I had the choice between a L-ion battery or VRFB in the garage under my daughters room, I would chose VRFB. I believe people need to know that there are options beyond Tesla and L-ion.
F.u.c.k...... that’s terrifying! By a school as well jeez!
PG, using candles as an analogy is way off 'target', your argument is a little limp. We all take L-ion for granted in many applications as it is the only way for products to work - but they still 'blow up' now and again.
Storage is a different factor and the world is now seeing that L-ion is not 100% safe - VRFB is proving to be non-volatile.
You as a LTH should be a little more proactive towards V.
GLA
You’re missing the point - Think risk reduction, rather risk elimination.
There is no viable alternative to L-Ion for mobile device and EV energy storage (to my knowledge). There is for stationary, grid scale storage.
Putting the fire out is the problem, lithium-ion battery fires seem to defy the triangle of fire.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc-eJFIT-bo
So I take it you are on the tesla boards extolling the virtues of v batteries?
Thought not
Lithium and VRFB are very different products that meet different needs. Lithium has a greater energy density but cannot be cycled as often as VRFB, does not operate for the same long duration, isn't fully recyclable, does not have as long a lifespan, degrades over time, requires cooling that VRFB does not and is inherently less safe - like it or not. they are apples and oranges. Li-on has a place but anyone who seriously thinks lithium is here and that is it doesn't understand the way the market is moving towards long duration storage - because that is what is actually needed to facilitate a real transition to renewables.
Also, this really isn't about one tech over the other. The world needs a variety of technologies to meet its needs.
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/are-electric-cars-safe-in-accidents.htm
Loudspeaker - as you are ex firefighter what do you think of the idea of potentially the world's largest battery being built but the local fire brigade not being informed ?
The letter that Ninvestor has uncovered should register as a national scandal.
https://infrastructure.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/wp-content/ipc/uploads/projects/EN010085/EN010085-001751-GREAT%20-%20D7%20-%20Battery%20Storage.pdf
"It is evident that the applicant had not engaged KFR at any time during the consultation period
and, instead, left it to KF&R to learn about the application themselves and reach out
to the applicant. "
Truly astonishing !
Bella the car comparison is not applicable in the case of stationary energy storage for the following reasons
1) The energy density in a stationary energy storage system is typically 10-20 times higher than in a car park full of electric vehicles. If we assume an eV contains 75kWh in a footprint of 3m x 6m you get an energy density of 4.2 kWh/m2. In a stationary energy storage system that energy density could be as much as 1.5MWh in a 40foot container (12mx 2.5m) leading to an energy density of 50 kWh/m2. In fact inside a real shipping container the lithium-ion batteries are concentrated much more densely than this as much of the container is for access and cooling systems.
2) Stationary energy storage systems are cycled much more aggressively than electric vehicles. A stationary energy storage system coupled to a PV array will likely be expected to be cycled fully 300 times per year. Again if we consider a typical eV having a full charge range of 250miles this would be the equivalent of doing 75,000 miles per year. Possibly some occasional motorway salesmen might achieve this mileage but the UK average car owner does around 8,000 miles ( https://www.thinkmoney.co.uk/news-advice/what-is-the-average-miles-driven-per-year-in-the-uk-0-8581-0.htm ) There are some in the eV community who scoff about batteries that don't have tyres and a steering wheel but they quieten down when presented with these facts.
3) The amount of HF gas produced from an eV fire might be as much as 15 Kg (0.2g per Wh as mentioned here:- https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z ) At room temperature and pressure this amount of HF gas would completely occupy 16.8m3 (RMM 20g per mole = 750 moles, 1 mole of 22.4 dm3 = 0.0224m3 ) . A typical garage has a total volume of 3mx6m x3m = 54m3 - so pure HF gas would occupy 30% of the total volume of a single garage.
HF gas is so dangerous that the Lethal 10-minute exposure level is 170 parts per million ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK207733/table/ttt00047/?report=objectonly ). The HF evoluted inside a single garage would be at levels of 300,000 ppm or 1760 times the 10-minute lethal exposure level.
BBs are for the insecure who need others to confirm their own doubts.
——————————-
So you’re here with doubts about lithium batteries looking for confirmation of your views. Good to know.
cont...
So the amount of HF gas produced by a single car fire, whilst clearly deadly in an enclosed space and also potentially deadly in a not so enclosed space such as a breezy above-ground car park, is perhaps something that can be dealt with. However put the equivalent of 13,000 electric cars in the same system (100MWh) and you have a potential cloud of deadly gas that would rival the Bhopal disaster in which 20,000 people died (https://www.bhopal.net/what-happened/that-night-december-3-1984/the-death-toll/)
And this post from a forum in 2017 and the reference is to Richard Hammond super car crash after Swiss hill climb challenge where battery kept reigniting over a 3 day period.
'Firefighter here. I attended a Tesla training in which they actually rolled over one of their $100,000+ cars and showed us what's what. They build in battery and electrical disconnect points for us to use during the extrication (read: destruction) process, but when a car is as badly damaged as Hammond's, they may not be accessible. The best bet is to enter a defensive mode, let it burn and just focus on keeping the fire from spreading to exposures (vegetation, structures, etc.). This is one of the many aspects of modernity that's making us rethink the "smash and spray" mentality of the past. I wouldn't say we hate electric cars because a good fireman likes a good challenge, but the amount of resources and time they consume (5 days?!?) make them expensive. If you want to talk about scary for firefighters, let's talk hydrogen fuel cells...'
So the question is how man tow trucks would be happy to remove an EV with badly damaged battery pack which had caught fire from the accident site...
Haha... Just thought I'd stir it up a bit...
If you want to see how far a cloud of toxic HF gas would spread look at the last image here:- https://www.favershameye.co.uk/post/cleve-hill-batteries-included
Right well thanks for gracing us with your knowledge. Must have taken some time out of your 'serious' investing..
PG.. The market is enormous and there will be plenty of room for many different energy storage methods and it will probable settle down to proximity and availability of resources.
We will be in a sorry state if the World's energy storage is beholding to one company/technology like Tesla.
As I posted a couple of days ago, light weight solar panels are now coming to market and these can be installed on existing commercial buildings where the roof wasn't strong enough to support the heavier glass panels... The adds a huge new retro fit market for both solar and battery storage.
In France all new commercial building must generate a certain percentage of their energy usage.
Safety will be a big factor in decision making but so will risk assessment together with costs, ease of installation, maintenance, life span, expansion, end of life replacement/recycling and in some of these areas VRFBs will be a better choice.
We have a 4x4 and a sports car... I rest my case!!!
A classic case of " you don't know your doing"
As I said earlier with the UK having no experience of extinguishing lithium-ion on the planned scale.
It will take a disaster and stable door legislation to sort it it out,and someone could be facing a Culpable manslaughter charge if the worse case scenario happens.
PG your argument about lithium batteries being left on charge overnight is a good point. Most tesla fires have occurred while on rapid charge. The quicker the charge transfer seems to increase the risk. I also believe barring a bath with now have a limited use for candles until we have a fire at a lithium storage battery?????
Ps a great way for the board to start a weekend Alfa that is a great read