Member Info for TerryM1

Kipper9

Yes, I got CPI in a placing in around 1989 when they came to market and topped up a few times along the way, made a paper fortune and then lost it, yep long suffering. Also got some AV. and VOD like yourself.

The debate on SIPP, ISA and trading account really depends on your personal circumstances, i.e. have you used all your ISA allowance, have you used all your dividends allowance, are you a high rate tax payer etc. But as a general rule SIPP is best for DEC as no withholding tax, ISA is next if you have not used your ISA allowance otherwise outside so you can fill your ISA with REITS (20% dividend tax saving) and other high yielding shares as no UK dividend tax with DEC.

Why not have another ISA for DEC at say HL where you pay a % not a fixed fee, only rule is can only fund one ISA in a tax year (think that is changing), you can move DEC from IWEB to HL and just pay 15% WHT (very easy can be done over the phone), also can put cash into one ISA and move it to the other. If you buy DEC in IWEB cost £5 and then move to HL saving HL high dealing charge of £11.99 and also move spare cash as HL pays interest or better still buy a short term fund such as Royal London Short Term Money with no trading charges (funds free trading with HL) and get a little over 5% but HL you get a custody fee of 0.45% but still better than HL interest rate or no interest at IWEB.

Kipper9

IWEB will take 30% WHT, the brokers owned by banks all do this, most others it is 15% with W-8BEN and 0% in a pension.

Coolbeans44

"Say I hold my shares within an ISA. I'm not paying cgt or div tax. Given 15% of the dividend is being withheld can I claim Foreign Tax Credit Relief on that 15%?"

The Foreign Tax Credit Relief is only allowed in an individual share basis, i,e, if you get it on share A you cannot claim it on share B. I have not checked but I am almost certain you cannot claim Foreign Tax Credit Relief for shares in an ISA against shares outside of the ISA but even if you could as stated above it would have to be the same share.

Https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/nov/22/deep-space-astronauts-may-be-prone-to-erectile-dysfunction-study-finds

Why would you worry about erectile dysfunction if you are in zero gravity.

At a guess the reason is no BBs as this is the only thing stopping the fall recently along with gas going down, HH now 2.82 and the £ going up against the $ now 1.246. Also can't be hidden bad news as TU confirmed.

Without BBs there is no one to soak up the ESG and general sell off in funds, perhaps the NY listing will help but not looking too good as present as it is said the markets are forward looking.

Should have said for DEC no additional Dividend tax for standard rate tax payer outside of an ISA other shares 8.75% if over threshold

instead of

pay effectively additional 6.25% instead of the 8.75% for other shares.

Also hold REITs in my SIPP to save 20% dividend tax.

AngelsOneFive

Yes, if held outside the ISA and you are above the threshold for dividend tax you will still pay total of 15% where you would have paid 8.75% for UK companies and some others. If you have used your ISA limit usually best to hold other high paying shares in the ISA saving 8.75% (20% for REITS) dividend tax and pay effectively additional 6.25% instead of the 8.75% for other shares.

I keep DEC in my SIPP, mostly REITs in my ISA and other shares outside.

AngelsOneFive

If outside SIPP 15% (ISA or trading account) withholding tax if W-8BEN filled in (except for brokers owned by banks who take full 30%) otherwise 30% withholding tax without W-8BEN.

For pensions there is no withholding tax so for a SIPP 0%.

Bismarck

93p, 15% yield happy days. I am at 88p if you include dividends.

Agreed Bismarck, go for both option until the SP rises and the yield drops, 15% seems like a reasonable choice unless the interest rate to borrow is greatly reduced which we could see next year.

They recently bought back when the price was below 85p but then gave up and let the price tank, 15% would put the SP around 93p, would prefer 93p but happy with 85p.

Jim800

There are some things you are missing, DEC can borrow money less than 10% at floating rate and this rate is very likely to reduce over the 5 years you are using so in fact will be before 5 years when all the additional debit paid off. At that point all the shares been bought are free as covered by the dividend saving and the future dividends payments will be less for as long as DEC is in existence. Take a look at the last deal, Tanos, not done us much good has it, SP tanked ever since so where do you think DEC can buy assets as cheap as buying their own shares which will not tank the SP.

If/when things change then stop the BBs, also DEC could keep the shares in Treasury and sell them back to market if/when things improve.

Why don't you suggest this to Shell, BP, et al who have huge BB programs so are not using this cash to reduce debt or buy more assets, that's why their shares are performing great while DECs have been tanking. My Shell profits are huge but not as huge as my DEC losses.

Hi Trek

Thanks for you well considered post, are they not allowed to use at least some of the RCF as this I assume this has already been taken account into in the covenants but what do I know. If they cannot they have really painted themselves and us into corner in regards to the SP after Tanos, most other O&G companies left a pile of cash for BBs as they knew their SP would be under pressure with ESG fund sell offs at any price.

I like you are ambivalent as to the benefits of dual listing but hoping that this will help get the SP to rise to a more realistic level but not convinced. However I am concerned that they may go just to NY at some point and depending on what happens I cannot hold these in my SIPP or I can legally but my provider will not allow this company. Also as I have said I think the duel listing will not change the situation with holding these in my SIPP with II but like this confirmed this will not happen until DEC sends out this information to II who until this happens cannot confirm one way or the other, this should have been sent out at the same time as the RNS but as I keep saying us PIs are ignored.

IMO this company is well run for the day to day operations but fails to see the bigger picture required of a public listed company.

Jim800

You still don't understand that DEC can borrow money at less than half the cost of the dividends and the cost of borrowing ]is likely to fall giving even more bang for your bucks.

Not matter how you look at this unless DEC are going to cut the dividends to more than half BBs are accretive, just simple arithmetic as has been explained before. In just over 3 months alone would save 10% on dividend costs, where else could you get that type of return.

Capitalizer

The only bang I want to hear from JL is slamming the door on the way out.

Alessandro

"68p or 72p wont make that much of a difference, trust me."

That is almost 6% and they have been lower in the 66 range recently as low as 64.7p. The difference is close to a years interest and over time this would have compounded to make a significant difference.

However I take your point at these prices the SP is so low BBs make a lot of sense until the price rises significantly. Agree management are all over the place, BBs, placings but they do seem competent on the day to day in running of the business.

"If anyone thinks Lewis won’t seek to go out with a bang in some way you are deluding yourself."

Well he has certainly blown the SP to smithereens since he has been in charge.

Good news on the BBs and hope this continues but the question to ask is why 1M when the price is around 71p and none for a time when price in the 60s, this is making no sense or have they just found a pile of cash in the back of the sofa.

If the BOD clearly believe the current share price is ridiculously low why are they not Buying Back large amounts of shares which could be funded by debt which cost less than half the cost of the dividends.

Instead we have got this duel listing move which poses more questions. Can we still keep these in an ISA or SIPP, I contacted II and they do not know as DEC have not sent them any information (as I said PIs are ignored) they believe it is likely but can't confirm until DEC sends them the info. Are they planning to leave the LSE as this looks like the first move though I would not blame them for this. I am not surprised the share price has not reacted positively given the unknowns and as PIs were are left in the dark.

The company have not given any information for holders in SIPPs and ISAs probably because this will not change but I would like confirmation of this but as PIs we are ignored.

I also believe they will be exiting from the UK market at some point as why go to cost of dual listings especially one in the UK which requires a lot of paperwork including producing ESG reports which is in not required in the US. Also if you have a choice why buy on the LSE and pay stamp duty when you can buy in NY without this tax.

On the surface this looks good but does not look good to me for the future of UK shareholders but I can understand the move as the UK is not a good place to be listed any more. See latest moves, ARM re-listed in US not UK thought based in UK Glencore, splitting and coal only listed in NY and of course many more, the LSE is fast losing global position.

Notrex

Absolutely right, dividends are meaningless in isolation, it is the overall return that counts.