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12:25 in the recording @tomcat: is this the first time we've heard about hydroxide being produced at the pilot plant? (as well as other lithium chemicals!) Finally! ;-)

16:25 - he was cut off answering our age old question! ;-)

Personally I'm happy to find out it was shorts that done it not existing shareholders selling out @Bannor! But I'm perverse like that... ;-)

Oh dear @addicknt. WASH YOUR EARS OUT! ;-) 36:50...

🙈

Fair enough @addicknt. I suppose I could respond with there is a world of difference between not knowing that your share is shorted and knowing that your share is not shorted... If only I could hear the recording... ;-). Seriously - thanks!

You know what I mean @Masterbaker. You are suggesting I might get more information out of the BoD than on here. I agree with you. I might. ;-)

@addicknt - @theiceberg said this on BCN on 3 Aug'18: "The problem as mentioned previously is the share is in freefall. The shorts were closed in the mid 60's which was even more of a pain as i hate shorters making money in this situation."

So is it possible that PS very diplomatically stated that BCN is not *currently* being shorted? i.e. it was shorts that brought it rapidly down as @theiceberg seems to believe, but they are now closed? I'm still left pondering how someone, BoD member or otherwise, can categorically state that a share has no short positions?

Thanks for the advice @Masterbaker!

Thanks for the clarification @addicknt. I wonder if they will make the conference call public? After all anyone could have phoned in, shareholder or otherwise?

Indeed @Bannor - I must admit I do wonder if our (perhaps it's just mine, but I think tomcat is on board with it too?) conclusion that another arm of Blackrock could be shorting BCN up to the number of shares they reportedly hold + 0.5% without having to publicly report. Surely PS knows this if so? As I said yesterday this is a likely a normal hedging strategy and certainly makes sense if they expect to be tapped for equity funding at some point: the lower the better if they intend to fully contribute.

Also @Bannor - I agree with your analysis: I can't see how PS could know if BCN shares are being shorted or not. The net could be below 0.5% for each entity doing conventional shorting (which we have evidence Blackrock does on other shares), and of course who knows how much the MM's might have (naked) shorted without reporting...

If anyone knows how PS might know - then I'd love to know! Nothing but education and fun to be had here ;-)

@Bannor - see the BCN board: What @Simon_Said doesn't square with what @addicknt said. Or does it and I'm being dim?

@Simon_Said - I appreciate it isn't a quote, but you wrote: "Significant softening in whole market in last 3-4 months, they were caught up in it. Also lots of shorting among all of them. 60-70% in market at time of all transactions were short, betting on falling equity prices.'"

On the KDNC board @addicknt wrote: "Secker answered the question about shorting of BCN's shares...there has not been any."

I'm having trouble squaring the two.

@Masterbaker "l have to ask you another question now, why don't you? It would take no longer to type, you may get a clearer answer, better then any the bb Pi's can give, which you may or may not wish to share with the bb. "

I'm sure I will if I feel the need. Nothing stopping anyone else contacting him with anything I post though. I suspect it's because I find it fun and educational trying to find out the information for myself (with the help of others) than getting it handed to me on a plate, and a lot of the time I know he won't be able to answer anyway so I don't bother. I learnt a *lot* about (naked) shorting yesterday with the help of @Bannor who help steer me the course ;-)

I suppose I might contact him about how the accounts might reflect the £1.6m charge recorded against the now lapsed warrants if I can't figure it out. But I really don't like admitting defeat, so probably not! ;-)

Now what was that first question? ;-)

Ob.

@Masterbaker, the only communication I do with the BoD is via an "@Kiran" on here. If he doesn't see it, he doesn't see it. Is that from 100% not answered to 100% answered? Beat that Frankie! ;-)

Agreed @Bannor. My summary is that market makers may or may not be inappropriately overusing their exemption to the (naked) short selling rules in the run up to a placing - we won't know until there has been a ruling. So yes, you are right, short selling by market makers in anticipation of covering their shorts as part of an anticipated placing may be par for the course and could be demonstrated at some point, perhaps in a test case, to be perfectly legal. Though personally I doubt it as there is likely far too much evidence stacked up against them to be a happy coincidence time after time... Surely after Beaufort they must be less likely to play this particular game?

Fainites! ;-)

"Exemption for market making activities and primary market operations under Regulation (EU) 236/2012 of the European Parliament and the Council on short selling and certain aspects of Credit Default Swaps"
https://www.esma.europa.eu/sites/default/files/library/2015/11/2013-74.pdf
===[
23. It should be noted that the exemption only covers activities when, in the particular circumstances of each transaction, they are genuinely undertaken in the capacity of market making as defined in Article 2(1)(k) of the Regulation. Consequently, persons notifying the intent to make use of the exemption are not expected to hold significant short positions, in relation to market making activities, other than for brief periods.
]===

Brief periods is the key point.

I see where you are coming from now @Bannor. Reading the rules below, my opinion is if they are manipulating the market in this manner on anticipation of closing their short positions from a placing then they are acting illegally.

"Revised note on the UK notification process for market makers and authorised primary dealers"
https://www.fca.org.uk/publication/policy/uk-notification-process.pdf

"Exemption for market making activities and primary market operations under Regulation (EU) 236/2012 of the European Parliament and the Council on short selling and certain aspects of Credit Default Swaps"
https://www.esma.europa.eu/sites/default/files/library/2015/11/2013-74.pdf

Here is a more accessible article @Bannor. This is all good discussion by the way! ;-)

"SHORT SELLING"
https://www.esma.europa.eu/regulation/trading/short-selling
===[
EU Regulation on Short Selling and certain aspects of credit default swaps N 236/2012 came into force on 1 November 2012 with the aim of achieving the following:
...
All short sales of shares must be covered by either having borrowed them, having arranged to borrow them; or have an arrangement with a third party confirming their location (i.e. naked short selling in shares is now banned);
]===

Can't really be much clearer than that. I note that various on-line articles haven't been updated to reflect this change...

I agree that Market Makers can naked short sell for *market making purposes only*. Any other use, as we are discussing on this thread, is prohibited.

@Bannor - how does your understanding fit into the regulations I posted @19:58? From what I can see, with the exception of market makers for market making purposes only, shares have to have been identified before they can be naked shorted. i.e. there is a finite number in the market - no double accounting. Precisely why the new rules are as they are - to prevent the shenanigans of pre-2012.