Member Info for Lindon

Although by all accounts LED/Optics are indeed going well, this move sounds more like a general long term cost cutting exercise to increase the overall efficiency of the division. Moving to larger premises & selling the old ones to provide the floor space which will enable production, warehousing & dispatch to be all on one site is a good move.

Hey Banksman, I started my working life at 15 as a banksman. Its the name given to the labourer down the trench, shovel in hand, who follows & backs up a JCB diggier bucket as it moves along, he smooths & bottoms up the ttrench to lay electricity power cables. After 5 yrs & muscles as big as a bulls whatnots I thought 'sod this for a game of soldiers'. Over the next few years I took various courses & learned how to join various voltage power cable lengths together. Still working in deep muddy holes though, so then spent years taking various electrical engineering exams. I became a SAP!!! (Senior Authorised Person) As a senior qualified engineer I worked on 240v, 11kv, 33kv & 132kv power distribution systems. By the time I retired I was the major projects manager for central southern England working directly for the bod of a major uk footsie 100 energy company. As such I gained a pretty good insight into senior directors mentality, Iv'e sat in boring meetings with wealthy land owners, local authority town halls with councillors & various highway officials eating their biscuits & drinking their coffee. Iv'e worked deep underground & up in the sky on the pylons, sometimes 24-48 hours at a stretch & in weather conditions that just want you curl up in a ball & cry! I ain't no techie! The answer to your question? I haven't got a clue! All I do is give out my interpretation of events as I, me, myself sees them. They could be & most likely are a load of old bulls whatnots!

I'm in email contact with an editor at ZDnet who discussed the Pro 3 with the Microsoft execs at the New York presentation. He understands TS tech & he thinks the questions I have posed are good ones. He has promised to chase up with Micrsoft & see what he can find out from the horses mouth.

..... OGS sheet type: AUO and Innolux offer LCD, OGS patterning (cover glass with SITO sensor) and lamination in an integrated solution. The glass sheet could be specified by Apple as IOX-FS next version, which will likely reach Gorilla 1’s compressive strength standard. In this scenario, LG Display will never give up and must be one of the suppliers. OGS piece type: AUO and Innolux offer LCD, piece type sensor patterning, and lamination. Unlike sheet-type integration, they can use consigned cover glass pieces from existing finishers such as Lens One. The challenge will be to expand their piece-type patterning equipment, yield rate and throughput. After all, iPhone is more than 100M unit base. However, as a leading touch panel and long-term touch supplier for Apple until the iPhone 5, will TPK will be silent and fade out from Apple’s supply chain? Not likely. TPK has excellent OGS sheet and piece-type technology, and high lamination yield rates. Although AUO and Innolux have advantages as LCD makers and can shorten the supply chain by producing LCD and touch at the same time, TPK has strength in OGS integration from sensor patterning, cover glass finishing (for sheet type), to module lamination. Thus, there is a good chance that TPK will once again be a key touch supplier to Apple if it decides to change touch structures.

It almost certainly is Gorrila but yes it's possible that it was just assumed to be that. Quite understandable. OGS (One Glass Solution) which is what this seems to be has only ever been used in mobile size screens due to ITO's poor SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio). OGS has the X and the Y grids printed on the same side of the substrate... the under side of of the cover glass. OGS reduces the thickness of display. It removes one of the layers of glass from the stack. The basic idea is to replace the touch module glass by a thin layer of insulating material. There are two ways to achieve this: One approach to OGS is called "sensor on lens." (In this case, the "lens" refers to the cover glass.) You deposit an ITO layer on the back of the cover glass and pattern it to create the electrodes. You add a thin insulator layer to the bottom of that, and then deposit a second ITO layer on the back of that, patterning it to create electrodes running at right angles to the first layer. This module then gets laminated onto a standard LCD panel. The other approach is called "on-cell" (Here the "cell" refers to the LCD display.) A conductive layer of ITO is deposited directly onto the top layer of glass in the LCD panel, and then patterned into electrodes. A thin insulating layer is applied, and then the second ITO layer is patterned with the second layer of electrodes. Finally, the top polarizing layer is applied on top, and the display is completed by adding the top cover glass. With OGS, the situation is even more complicated than with the on-cell touch structure. OGS integrates the touch ITO sensor circuits into the cover glass. There are two OGS methods, one a piece type, such as TPK’s “TOL” (touch on lens) and the other a sheet type, each using a different process. In both cases, the X-Y sensor patterns are on the same side of the substrate, therefore the sensor structure is called “SITO” (also known as “G2”). There are also some patent issues about this, with TPK, the leading touch panel maker, recently claiming that they have key SITO patents and suing Nokia and Chinese touch panel maker O-film. Whether AUO and Innolux can produce OGS SITO structures under TPK’s patent coverage is not clear. So, patent ownership, changing sensor structures, and business strategy all factor into whether Apple will change touch structures on their products. Apple’s selection of sheet or piece type OGS is certainly a critical issue. In sheet type, the compressive strength (CS) of the cover glass is in the 500-600 Mpa range, because Corning’s IOX-FS and Gorilla glass, which have CS of 600-700 Mpa for smart phone sizes, cannot be used in sheet type. While piece type has a higher CS value, the mask stamping and alignment under photolithography are difficult, and the throughput may be low. Consequently, piece type could be difficult for AUO and Innolux. So far, among the

... & the answers is... we dunno! No other references to a two layer stack anywhere on the web. The people Iv'e spoken with feel if HAS been invented, its so unique it would revolutionise the whole known global touch industry & it would major news all over the web. The general consensus is the reported conversation has been misquoted even though the stack is only 0.75 thick & there seems to be secrecy about the glass maker. It has also been pointed out that there is an oxymoron in the quote... "ITO adds the touch sensitivity". The reporter has no idea what he's talking about & no supposed touch scientist would say such a thing! Due to the extraordinary thinness of the stack there is a belief that this MAY be the first offering from the Corning/Atmel collaboration using 0.4mm glass with XSense & commercial confidentiallity being kept for the time being is the reason for the secracy. Some measurements have been done using the known thickness of the XSense film + adhesives + 0.4 cover glass & an overall opticle stack thickness of 0.75 on top of the LED display panel IS achievable. The thinnest LED display panel is known to be 1.2 mm thick. Until & unless any further news becomes available we shall just have to wait & see. If the PO WAS won for the Pro 3 just after the 1/5 RNS then a 20/6 launch to USA & Canada (rest of the world by end of August) is quite possible. They aren't going to be queued outside the store waiting for it... & take up of a device like this will be slow & steady with corporate customers supplied first.

Well not because it was anounced recently does it means that Atmel and Cornning has not been working on it for a while.!!!!

The rest of the Americans probably not yet aware of the two layer stack but I can assure you the warrior knows & he'll post up on the Atmel board after he's had a chance to find out more about it. He's got good contacts, like me he is very puzzled at the mo.

The article clearly states MS have been working on it for years. Oh yeah! Who with? But not only do I not see how a two layer arrangement can work, especially with ITO... I'm very puzzled why they won't state who has made the ultra thin glass, its normaly on the data sheet & there is no reason to hide the glass maker, ALL mainstream portable devices are normally Corning glass, either a Gorilla version or Soda Lime... but MS seem to be going out of their way to keep the glass maker secret even in this interview. There is something very strange going on. Can't argue with an 'eminent MS scientist' but TBH I'm not sure what to believe at the mo. I'll post whatever I can find on the subject.

gocarclo... This 2 layer stack is revolutionary. It knocks very other competing solution, silver OR copper out of the water. i have no idea how they have got this to work. I just hope Microsoft have patented it & no- one else can use it, because on the face of it and if not, it's a definative death knell for XSense as a sensor & every OTHER solution there is on the market... now & in the future... IMO absolutely nothing will ever beat a two layer opticle stack with a 0.75mm thickness. This brings the POSSIBILITY of total wipeout for XSense as a touch sensor in the mobile space & write downs could be on the cards IMO.

Sorry folks but this looks like a disaster for XSense! In conversations with Microsoft execs, Mashable got the lowdown on a handful of key aspects that help the productivity-oriented product stand out. 1. The screen is made up of just two layers. IMAGE: MASHABLE, CHRISTINA ASCANI During the Surface Pro 3 unveiling on Tuesday, Microsoft Corporate VP Panos Panay talked extensively about the quality of the 12-inch screen. Microsoft has been working for years on decreasing the parallax effect you get from the multiple layers necessary to create a modern touch screen. The Surface Pro 3 is the apex of this effort with just two layers: the LCD and the glass on top of it. While Microsoft would not reveal who makes the ultra-thin optical glass, Microsoft distinguished scientist Steven Bathiche said that the glass is coated with indium tin oxide or ITO, which adds the touch sensitivity. http://mashable.com/2014/05/21/surface-pro-3-things-you-didnt-know/

... also forget about XSense in any LG phone... LG make their own sensors, On-cell or In-cell. Apple use In-cell for iPhone, its a more expensive solution. Samsung use On-cell for super AMOLED Galaxy mobiles. Neither solutions are good for large form factors due to poor SNR issues. Apple are researching a replacement for In-cell for their larger screened version of iPhone 6 for exactly that reason, that probably wont be launched till the end of the year some months after the new smaller version expected in September... but they could go for the Corning/Atmel thin solution for the large one.

N trig provided the pen... a replacement for the wacom. They MAY have provided the controller, I doubt it tho, the Atmel maxT chip is the best on the market by a long way. There is a report on TechRadar about it. However neither the pen or the chip relate to the touch sensor. N Trigs pen & any other make of controller & pen will work just fine with XSense.

Provided the Pro 3 has an XSense stack then this device will be the game changer the sp needs regardless of selling volumes. The thickness of the entire opticle stack is three quarters of one millimetre thick. For better... or for worse for Carclo... THAT is a game changer. IF.. Its XSense the future is golden.

Invariably device specification & data sheets inform what the cover glass is ie... Gorilla glass 3. There is no mention of cover glass for the Surface Pro 3. There MUST be a reason for that IMO. A couple of days ago Corning had a presentation with JP Morgan. They said a new improved version will be released THIS year. We already know they can produce a cover glass that is 0.4mm thick, both in Gorilla glass 3 & Gorilla glass NBT. Those have been in production since last July. Thin glass has been found to be not good with ITO on film due to poor SNR. If Pro 3 has XSense its down to Atmel to say they have won the contract... not Microsoft. There are many reasons why Atmel have not said anything.... for one the American market doesn't open till around 2.30 our time! The others are other reasons, primaraly... commercial confidentiality, not so much for Atmel but also Corning! The remaing reason is that it may not have XSense! IF that is so then IMO it will be best to move on because its difficult to see how a 0.75mm stack can be beaten without it not being even in existence!

As you know I was half expecting another leg down towards fair value for the core anyway. But my take on that happening today is that its about the new Pro 3. The Pro 3 boasts 0.75mm thick stack, the thinnest yet, so much so that the pen tip virtually touches the ink. It can be pre-ordered today & released USA/Canada June 20th. IMO today's fall, in context with the megga thin stack, is due to there being no announcement from Atmel that it contains XSense even though this device must now be going into production. The suspicion IMO is if it DOESN'T then fair value is definitely on the cards. Its quite possible that it DOES, if so the news could be released at anytime between now & June 10th,

The Galaxy Note 4 could finally make good on years of rumours of a flexible screen-toting Samsung smartphone, after an exec revealed the phone-maker is considering incorporating bendy display tech in its next-gen phablet. Lee Younghee, VP at Samsung's mobile division, told the Wall Street Journal that although the Note 4 is still at a nascent stage and a final decision hasn’t been made on its design, the company is mulling a flexible screen. The adoption of a flexi-display by Samsung, talk of which has been a tech-site staple for longer than we'd like to remember, would make the Note 4 markedly more robust and shock-resistant than rival devices. Perhaps more importantly, it would massively help to differentiate the S-Pen-stylus-equipped Note range from rival smartphones and phablets as well. Younghee also revealed that fresh takes on the Galaxy Tab tablet range will make their debut at a press call at Madison Square Gardens on June 12th. That wasn’t too much of a surprise, though, given that invites to the event sent out last week featured the none-too-cryptic tagline ‘Tab into colour’. The Note 4, meanwhile, is likely to tip up in September at the IFA tech expo in Berlin, as it has every year so far.

Microsoft is set to launch new Surface products including a Surface Pro 3 tablet at an event in New York today Read more: http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/tablets/3517672/how-watch-surface-pro-3-launch-live/#ixzz32FtNmvSi

Well thanx but I'm def no expert! Its Atmel who have raised the possibility of licensing out the production... but yes if that happens then the cost issues ARE addressable. However its not gonna be easy. If they get the sensor produced elsewhere what does effect does that have on all the capex that Atmel have gone through with their own production lines? Will they want THEM stood idle? Even if they transfer all that production equipment to a third party & get them set up for production there will be a huge cost involved. Another possibility of course is for Atmel to bring the module assembly work 'in house' ... but again, big costs. The problem with any solution is there no actual hard guarantee the OEM' s will buy even then. We shall have to wait & see what developers. Atmel have said the XSense progs are now moving into the 'win' stage. That's because the OEM's HAVE to make decisions very soon... on the designs of their devices in preparation for the important 3 & 4Q's selling season in the run up to next Xmas. GLA

After what Carclo have said about poor margins I doubt even the announcement of another win will make much difference but should Atmel announce they have licenced out the sensor production to an ODM... that would certainly light the touch paper. I wouldn't want to be out if that happens... & with Atmel saying they are exploring that avenue it may not be far away from happening. It would immediately kill the price differentials versus the competition & XSense quality would take over even without Corning's thin glass. ELK are the ones who have done the module work for HP... like most of the other ODM's they had their own silver mesh solution but it bit the dust. They will probably be one of those in the frame. A couple of ITO plants were mothballed late last year & more projected for this year. They are all struggling to compete on price & there are casualties. There is a war going on out there & it will take time for those market dynamics to settle down as Liberium stated. If we DO ever get a press release from Atmel that an ODM has been signed up Carclo will rocket up in the blink of an eye. Licensing out production has been under consideration for close on 6 months... so it could happen at any time. In the meantime Carclo have now issued 2 profit warnings, owned up to reduced margins from any sales... & have now fallen inline with Atmel by withdrawing guidance for CIT. They have stated that they don't know where the next win, if any, might come from. All that is reflected in the sp & a drop to a fair value price under 100p for the core is possible soon... but it could charge up at any time.