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Solid-state lithium-metal batteries can theoretically exceed 1000 Wh/kg, so I agree @Greenmachine67 and that was always my expectation that lithium metal with high purity lithium would be the choice, unfortunately that doesn't make an alternative material capable of 400Wh/Kg unrealistic:

For lithium SSB

Theoretical: >1,000 Wh/kg

Practical (near-term SSBs): 400–700 Wh/kg

Reason: Cathode-limited chemistry, solid electrolyte thickness, safety margins, and packaging overhead.

@Greenmachine67, There's many applications for the motor, the battery will be proven one way or another in coming weeks, I have researched and they do have some well experienced engineers/designers from top motor racing and auto industry, who knows this might see other manufacturers accelerate their development or be more willing to release progress on lithium solid state..I was very sceptical about the legitimacy of the company and its claims - let's see what the next few weeks brings.

GL

Well @Greenmachine67,

I am surprised, you have already satisfied yourself that this is a scam:

"A 2 minute search reveals the company started in 2024 and has 22 employees…… enough said I’m afraid"

If you care to watch the video link I posted and give your view on this being a scam for the record?

This is a really good coverage and does ask the challenging questions at CES with Ville Piippo — Product Leader / CTO, leads engineering and platform development.

https://youtu.be/O8PjlwZVLVE?si=K0f8NNWzbkqDrCmx

45 minutes long, you will get a much better understanding of why they are so secretive but there's no doubt they expect the battery to be scrutinise at launch - some hints at the interest shown in the auto industry.

@CiaranC, in response to the character assassination on YT Vision

Leadership Marko Lehtimäki

As Co-Founder and long-time CEO of AppGyver, Marko helped shape one of the earliest and most respected no-code development platforms — tools that let people build full applications visually without writing traditional code.

Democratizing app creation: Under his leadership, AppGyver focused on empowering both technical and non-technical users to create native-quality mobile and web applications using drag-and-drop logic, access to native APIs, and visual composition tools — all without code.

Global reach & community: The platform attracted a community of hundreds of thousands of developers and enterprise customers, and AppGyver raised meaningful venture funding to support deeper development and global growth.

Acquisition by SAP: The company’s success led to it being acquired by SAP in 2021, validating the strength of the technology and market relevance of no-code tools for enterprise software development.

for balance, SAP are a global giant - his experience could well lead to AI advances, the Verge motor is ground breaking and in use:

Mika Häkkinen – Former Formula 1 World Champion; investor and brand ambassador Verge:

Risto Siilasmaa served as Chairman of Nokia’s Board from 2012 to 2020

Siilasmaa joined the board of Donut Lab — the Finnish EV components and electric motor company that spun out/works closely with Verge Motorcycles. In the fundraising announced around €15 million, he was a lead/anchor investor and took a board seat at Donut Lab

Maybe Marko has his hands full with the Donut EV OS platform being developed, that gives Verge and Donut a highly efficient motor, (proven) a ground-breaking SSB, (some Scepticism) the OS platform, (announced as launched) - not long to wait Q1 for the battery to be launched in bikes.

Marko Lehtimäki, has some credibility with executives and designers/engineers from brands like McLaren, Tesla, Apple and Rivian across Donut Lab and Verge.

I also have an interest in lithium being a material in mass production for years to come...but as with sodium ion there will be competition.

There are other technologies being researched one that I have seen mentioned as a potential:

Covalent Triazine Framework (CTF) batteries are an emerging class of organic-based energy-storage systems that use Covalent Triazine Frameworks as a key electrode material (most often the anode, sometimes the cathode or a conductive host).

They sit at the intersection of organic chemistry, solid-state ion transport, and next-generation batteries

I'll leave it at that, the video below makes no end of claims, if you want to look end to end and give a reason why these claims would be made when in only a few weeks it be be revealed in products, they are not coming cap in hand and that has puzzled me - Verge Motor Cycles and Donut have some interesting backers and auto industry people with experience in tech giants:

https://youtu.be/F58YP005Jw8?si=suIOGXNEaP_7m8KJ

That's all from me, don't be too quick to judge, there's some very interesting people associated with Verge Motor Cycles and Donut - people who I don't believe would be part of a scam!

GL

No @Scaffman, just here and EMH where I've always posted, it's proliferating through the web and it will be hitting these bb's for sure.. no ulterior motive

I'll just sit back and watch the news, I did question the legitimacy of this and do still have reservations but why they would launch this at CES and at the same time say the product is in production being released in a matter of weeks if it was to scam investors. Just puzzles me!

Tel you what, watch this end to end and tell me you are certain it's a con:

https://youtu.be/F58YP005Jw8?si=W_eBur1swc_z3Xft

I more convinced than I was earlier in the week, not 100% but I just can't explain the reasoning for making the claims, if you post you are 100% sure it's a scam I will pledge I will not post on this until Q2 or its proven either way.

Watt motors are also in the CES launch:

https://www.wattelectricvehicles.com/about/people

Now if there was a funding announced at the same time or soon after the yes that would be a reason to doubt.

I look forward to your view!

Well, being shipped in Q1 they claim with a solid state battery at no extra cost:

https://youtu.be/F58YP005Jw8?si=P620Hpa5MAXkUDSX&t=748

The older battery:

Verge Motorcycles set a Guinness World Record in March 2025 for the longest journey by an electric motorbike on a single charge, traveling 310.689 kilometres (193 miles) in Greater London on their TS Pro model, proving real-world range and efficiency with 7% battery remaining.

I'm sure we will find out very soon, and yes there's a great deal of sceptics discussing this, but why risk a reputation if you already have a successful product and are backed financially?

We still have an interest in lithium, its why many on here bought into the EV revolution -

@Greenmatch67

"A 2 minute search reveals the company started in 2024 and has 22 employees…… enough said I’m afraid"

I gave it a little more time - OMG the people involved now makes me believe this is legit - you have to begin in 2018 - GL

There's a great deal of articles going around on the Donut Lab tech and a great deal of scepticism as would be expected with little evidence being given on their battery tech – but digging deeper!!

Donut Lab originated from Verge Motorcycles, and in that sense, it is effectively a spin-off from Verge’s EV technology efforts

The former Chairman of Nokia, Risto Siilasmaa, is an investor in the electric mobility startup Donut Lab and has joined its Board of Directors.

The Verge people - also some are listed as Donut - some big brand names!!

CFO Appointment:

• Mark Wilson, previously CFO/EVP at Aston Martin Lagonda and McLaren Automotive, was appointed CFO in 2023 to help scale international operations and fundraising.

• Tuomo Lehtimäki, Chief Executive Officer, provides electric-vehicle leadership and strategic vision and is the founder who has led Verge Motorcycles from its inception.

• Marko Lehtimäki, Chief Technology Officer, is responsible for engineering, software, and innovation, and is a serial technology entrepreneur best known as the founder of AppGyver.

• Alan Foster, Chief Operating Officer, oversees operations and manufacturing scale-up, drawing on extensive experience at McLaren and in automotive consulting.

• Haydn Baker, Chief Programme Officer, leads product development and engineering programmes, with prior experience 7 years at McLaren Automotive and Rivian.

• George Blankenship, Chief Revenue Officer, is responsible for brand and retail strategy, leveraging decades of experience building iconic customer experiences at Apple and Tesla.

Now, take a look – he is without doubt saying the batteries are in production and in products now!

Marko Lehtimäki — Co-Founder / CTO / Board Chairman founded 2018

https://youtu.be/V--lLMtSozA?si=H9Smk8alojHaMONA

Another Spin off from Donut ESOX

Group Chief Executive Officer at ESOX Group

Dan Walmsley is a highly accomplished motorsport and automotive executive with a career spanning engineering leadership, programme management, and advanced manufacturing. He began as Team Principal of Strakka Racing, overseeing vehicle development, performance optimization, and race engineering programs, including participation in the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Walmsley later joined McLaren Automotive as Motorsport Director. Today, he serves as CEO of ESOX Group.

I'm intrigued - AI information but seems accurate - another AI has validated the above ;-)

For anyone interested,

https://www.nordicnano.co/strategic-partnership-with-donut-lab-strengthens-nordic-nanos-role-in-the-electric-mobility-cluster/

For anyone interested,

https://www.nordicnano.co/strategic-partnership-with-donut-lab-strengthens-nordic-nanos-role-in-the-electric-mobility-cluster/

I'm happy to say, I'm on the fence -

you might find this interesting:

https://youtu.be/Qsi-TS8PX7U?si=cBl1URePnPgzkP4q - from 6:00

@Greenmachine67

Energy density and weight - the claims of 400Wh per Kg is pretty much in the range of most solid state battery's being developed, if you can show me anything do support your claim that its impossible.

If you Google Donut Labs you will find pages of results on the company, I really was hoping it would be lithium based and the company have been button-lipped on the materials, as mentioned and in the link the CEO does state no lithium - I was really taken back and with the specs plus being cheaper than lithium-ion, 10,000 cycles plus all the other claims - under 10 minute charging

I would say 400Wh per Kg is sufficient for the majority of cars and even trucks - I agree that solid state lithium will have a place for maybe heavy trucks, trains, construction and aviation if they get to 600Wh plus..plenty of news on this so take a look and if anyone finds it is lithium based I will be more pleased than most.

This has just hit the internet in the last few days - it's mind blowing, the tech this company has incredible technology - I have been puzzling over this a few days and found this YT tonight - I have been a firm believer that solid state batteries would be lithium based:

https://youtu.be/eGw-Wm4fyGI?si=4X0YJBIOMsTEIDeN

At 8:00 - states no lithium - if this proves to be as it claims it will change EV's and transport for years to come IMHO - I am truly astonished at the claims but it seems legit.

@Bannor

just at 8:00 - no lithium - OMG if this is true!!! and it appears to be...

https://youtu.be/eGw-Wm4fyGI?si=KS1foQru6kRUFJ-9&t=470

This is crazy!!!!!!

NDA's with 200 OEMS factories planned 100GWh production by 2029 end of ICE end of Lithium?

@Bannor,

it does appear to be legit, what an incredible company with their breakthrough motors but what really intrigues me is their solid state battery - they have more than one application from e-motorbikes to trucks fitted with 600KWh batteries:

https://youtu.be/eGw-Wm4fyGI?si=rhzLHck9v9flFdab&t=175

They are keeping tight-lipped on the materials being used!

@LedZepper

we are far better off in terms of risk than when we hit 6p recently, I do believe the environmental aspect was the biggest hurdle then the support of the state and municipality and others backing the restart, from news on the video conference in December:

Https://www.brasilmineral.com.br/noticias/retomada-de-projeto-no-amapa-deve-receber-us-200-milhoes

“This agreement settles an old liability and ensures that Pedra Branca receives fair compensation at an excellent time. It is the result of work that began last year and now translates into concrete benefits for the population and the business environment of Amapá,” stated Wandenberg Pitaluga. Also participating in the meeting were the Secretary of State for Mining, Mamede Barbosa; the Secretary of State for the Environment, Taísa Mendonça; the Secretary of International Relations and Foreign Trade, Patrícia Ferraz; and the former Comptroller General of the State, Maurício Alencar.

Funded to the Azteca production and off-take shipments with no need for a cash raise!