Member Info for JeffMills

Why would countries like the UK, Germany, and the US, with their focus on energy security and independence, willingly hand over control of their green hydrogen future to China?

Just a quick reminder before I log off—Ricky/JZ made a point that since people shop at Primark for cheap clothes, governments will do the same when it comes to electrolyzers. They seem to think it’s all about picking the cheapest option, no matter how poor the quality or efficiency. BP, they argue, will go for cost savings over durability or performance—despite the fact that this exact issue was covered in a Bloomberg story they’re always quoting.

Filtering's probably the best move like myself, but you can't help but notice when everyone's responding to this guy. Honestly, it was pretty entertaining tonight—probably a few too many drinks involved. Last week, hydrogen was "too expensive and won’t happen," and now it’s suddenly all about how China will control the whole supply of planet earth. I believe we could be arguing with a teenager.

They’ve made their point, they believe China will be a competitor, and we’ve addressed it—end of story. But, as you’ll probably tell me, they’re still repeating the same thing. I can almost predict the filtered message, and it’s not only weak but downright bizarre behavior Why would Linde and Shell choose us for a 100MW project if they could get one from China at a fraction of the cost? And why is RWE working with us? I just don’t get their argument. It feels like the same person, with two others just perpetuating pointless back-and-forths, offering nothing substantial. It’s embarrassing, really.

i honestly don’t know what’s worse—jz/ricky or this random guy who comes in here telling us off for discussing the hydrogen market. does he think this is some sort of sobriety club? this is a forum for exchanging ideas and opinions, not for being preached at by someone acting like they’re above it all. aat****z thanks for your lovely contribution as always pal.

Absolutely agree.

Companies like BP and Shell, they don’t gamble on cheap tech. To back this up with some facts, even with something as simple as solar panels shell invests in premium panels from companies like SunPower, instead of opting for the cheapest products available. BMW and Mercedes-Benz invest in the best batteries and tech for their EVs, sourced from reliable suppliers like Panasonic and LG Chem, not cheap, unproven alternatives. Or look at Apple: they’d never go for cheap chips from China; they work with TSMC for their processors, the best in the business.

And remember—just because something is made in China doesn’t mean it’s "by China." Many high-quality products manufactured in China come from international companies that enforce strict quality control. It’s not about the country of origin; it’s about the brand and the standards they uphold.

A quote from bloomberg:

Concerns have emerged regarding the accuracy of performance claims made by some Chinese electrolyser manufacturers. BloombergNEF reports that these manufacturers may be overstating their systems' efficiencies by 10-20%, due to a national standard that assumes 100% current efficiency—an unrealistic benchmark.

Additionally, operational challenges have been observed in large-scale projects. Sinopec's Kuqa green hydrogen facility, the world's largest, is reportedly operating at less than a third of its capacity. Issues such as missing safety features and lower-than-promised efficiencies have been identified, raising concerns about the reliability of some Chinese-made electrolysers.

What’s even funnier is he couldn't even get the basics right! H&M is Swedish, and Primark is Irish. He’s seriously drawing comparisons between cheap fast fashion and multi-billion-dollar energy investments? It’s almost laughable. I mean, if he’s going to make analogies, at least get the companies straight. This just shows how far off the mark his thinking is.

Please tell me he didn’t just say that! He's actually comparing where electrolyzers come from—cheap ones from China—to where people buy clothes like H&M or Primark for a night out? That’s the analogy he’s going with? Absolutely laughable. He’s comparing everyday consumer choices to a country that relies on sustainable energy—or to companies like BP that make multi-billion-dollar decisions based on long-term impacts. This just underscores the absolute lack of understanding. wow!

one week it’s too expensive, the next it’s “happening” but china’s going to own the tech. it’s like they’re just jumping on whatever narrative’s trending, instead of actually engaging with the sector. filter the creep, hopefully, he ****s off to ceres or afc for a week, hahaha. let him spam somewhere else for a change.

Haha, I can totally imagine them going crazy—“Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, crying ‘sell, sell, sell!’ but China says this, but wait, hydrogen is too expensive, now China’s taking over the market!” No real understanding, just clickbait pushers who jump from one headline to the next. It’s all noise, no substance, and definitely no grasp of the technology or long-term game.

For those who say efficiency doesn’t matter, let’s make it clear: efficiency directly impacts profits and margins. The more efficient an electrolyser, the less energy it consumes, which means lower operating costs and higher margins. In the long run, that’s what matters to companies like Shell and RWE, who need reliable, cost-effective technology for large-scale hydrogen production. That’s why they’re working with ITM Power, not Chinese manufacturers.

I can already see the next argument coming—comparing solar panels to PEM electrolysers, as if they’re both equally complex. Solar panels are great for mass production, but let’s be real—they don’t require the same level of advanced materials or precision engineering that PEM systems do!! Then they’ll probably bring up something like smartphones—sure, China manufactures a huge number of them, but manufacturing doesn’t equate to innovation.

Perhaps EVs will be brought up, yes, China is the largest producer, but that’s largely due to its ability to scale manufacturing at an unprecedented rate, not because they’ve revolutionized the technology. The core of EVs, like lithium-ion batteries, already existed before China scaled them. When it comes to PEM electrolysis, though, we’re talking about a much more technically challenging field, involving rare materials and complex systems that require years of R&D to perfect. It’s not just about production capabilities—it’s about mastering the underlying technology, something that’s still a leap ahead for Western firms. Idiots.

Spot on troublesome. People are often mistaken into thinking China is ahead just because so many things are "made in China." In reality, China is the world's factory, meaning it excels at mass production and assembly, not necessarily at inventing or developing cutting-edge technologies. The idea that China is leading in tech simply because they manufacture a lot of products is an oversimplification.

If China is so ahead, why haven’t they caught up with things like car engines? Look at companies like Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Ferrari—these brands dominate the high-performance engine market. Despite China’s vast resources, they haven’t been able to replicate such expertise in automotive engineering.

And it’s not just cars. Smaller countries, with far fewer resources, are leading in specific tech fields. Take Switzerland, for example: companies like Logitech and ABB are global leaders in precision engineering, robotics, and automation. Or look at Israel, with its world-renowned cybersecurity and AI companies like Check Point and Mobileye, despite its small size and limited market.

China may be rich, but it’s not always about wealth—it’s about years of experience, innovation, and specialised expertise, something that can't be bought or replicated easily.

Carrying on from my bloomberg quote. I feel like every argument in here is simplified to a headline you'd find on a website story, and the person sharing it clearly has no clue. Do you understand why China doesn’t make PEM electrolysers at scale? Iridium, a key material for PEM technology, isn’t found in large quantities in China. It's a rare metal primarily mined as a byproduct of platinum and nickel, with most production coming from countries like South Africa, Russia, and Canada.

PEM electrolysis requires not just iridium, but also high-purity materials and advanced catalysts, making it more complex and expensive to produce. While China excels in scaling simpler technologies like alkaline electrolysis, PEM demands significant R&D investment, expertise, and reliable access to these rare materials. That’s why companies like ITM Power are ahead—they've spent years perfecting these systems.

A quote from bloomberg:

Concerns have emerged regarding the accuracy of performance claims made by some Chinese electrolyser manufacturers. BloombergNEF reports that these manufacturers may be overstating their systems' efficiencies by 10-20%, due to a national standard that assumes 100% current efficiency—an unrealistic benchmark.

Additionally, operational challenges have been observed in large-scale projects. Sinopec's Kuqa green hydrogen facility, the world's largest, is reportedly operating at less than a third of its capacity. Issues such as missing safety features and lower-than-promised efficiencies have been identified, raising concerns about the reliability of some Chinese-made electrolysers.

Ceres Power is already doing this—it's licensing its solid oxide fuel cell technology to Chinese partners for local manufacturing. This approach lets Ceres scale faster without heavy investment while tapping into China's vast industrial base. It's a model other Western companies, including ITM, might consider down the line.

Oh dear, I can't see Ricky's post here, but from your reply, it seems he's saying India will be the forefront of hydrogen tech? Lmao. High-tech innovation is dominated by EU/US companies. Sure, manufacturing happens in China or India for cheap labour, but the critical R&D and IP stay in the West. Nvidia (US) leads in AI chips, ASML (Netherlands) dominates semiconductors, Apple (US) designs iPhones, Dyson (UK) sets the bar for household tech, and even Boeing (US) defines aerospace innovation. Saying "made in China" means "made by China" is like saying factory workers invented the iPhone. It’s not about who assembles it; it’s about who invents it.

Hey everyone,

This new $3/kg hydrogen production credit in the U.S. could actually be huge for itm. Given their recent 500MW capacity reservation with a global industrial customer, which includes potential projects in the U.S., there's a strong chance that their final investment decision (FID) will target the American market.

Look, call it ramping if you want, but these hydrogen production credits were part of the Inflation Reduction Act announced in 2022. The rules have only now been finalised and are ready to go. Maybe I bought in before they were announced, and now they’re happening—like many other things finally falling into place. Simple as that.

FCEL ripping 20%, PLUG up 8% today (18% in just 1.5 days). Markets finally waking up after a slow start this morning in the US—what a way to close out the week. Enjoy the weekend, see you Monday!

Sources on Reuters say the 45V tax credit announcement could come today so hopefully in the next few hours but probably mid day over there/end of day—huge for hydrogen. And someone said Trump would just overturn it when he’s back in a few weeks? Oh, please. It’s part of the Inflation Reduction Act—a law, not something he can just erase. ITM's still set to benefit from the ripple effects, and no former president is stopping that train. Sentiment!!

Fossil fuels like oil have been heavily subsidised for decades—did you know the UK handed out around £5.9 billion annually in tax breaks to North Sea oil and gas producers? That’s right, billions to an industry already raking in profits. I can predict him scoffing at green hydrogen getting subsidies no doubt? Governments aren’t doing it for profit—they’re preventing climate disasters that would cost exponentially more. Maybe brush up on how energy subsidies work before pretending to understand the industry.