Member Info for Hexam

Jeff the Debtor in Possession is CINE. It is they who owe the money (to the DIP lenders and other creditors) and it is they who are in possession of the business - as the article you posted yourself clearly stated:

"The debtor, as a “debtor in possession,” is usually permitted to continue to operate its business during the course of the case, but must comply with the requirements of Chapter 11 and the bankruptcy court..."

So to be clear:

CINE - the debtors and, in this case the debtors in possession, as defined by Chapter 11 as they are still running the business.

DIP lenders i.e. lenders to CINE - They provided the $1.9bn DIP financing to CINE and are lenders and have priority over all other creditors. They are not debtors in any sense as they don't owe money to anybody in this arrangement.

Wolf - To be fair there are many types and levels of accountant so who knows. But not understanding the roles, accrual of interest, how much debt CINE has, how to see easily see the amount of the tax asset (without guessing), what a CIM is etc. etc. makes me wonder.

But whatever, I'm tired of cluttering up this board with circular, pointless and boring debates and I'm sure plenty of others too are of me contributing to them. I politely suggest Wolf that you do the same and just let him run wild and if people want to believe him then that's their lookout.

Elvis - I give up. You are trying to twist it into something it's not to wriggle out of your mistake. Jeff has also provided a definition that clearly states the different roles.

I don't use the filter button as I think it is important to see all views but from now on I'll just try to ignore your posts as best I can, unless you say something worthwhile, as I'm struggling to see the sense in them or that you are what you claim to be when you can't understand basic accounting terms like this.

Thanks Jeff

Elvis - please give it up. The Debtors in Possession are CINE as clearly highlighted in all the court docs (the one below is at the start of the one of the one you often quote - 722). Also google any definition of DIP - it is the company who are in debt but under Chapter 11 are allowed to keep possession of the company - hence the term. No wonder some get frustrated by these 'debates'!

"Upon the motion (the “Motion”), of Cineworld Group plc and its affiliated debtors in the above-captioned chapter 11 cases (collectively, the “Chapter 11 Cases”), as debtors and debtors in possession (collectively, the “Debtors”)"

The DIP lenders are not debtors in any sense. As you say 'they are expecting money to be paid to them in the normal course' so they are by definition creditors.

Elvis - CINE are the Debtors in Possession. The lenders are not - they are the one's providing the finance to CINE who are the debtors. The lenders are not debtors at all, they are the complete opposite, they are the creditors and the creditors who are at the top of the tree.

Toptuf - I have no problem with dissenting or different views, in the fact the more the better as that's what makes for good debate and learning.

But when people keep saying things that are demonstrably incorrect or are outright lies like the post this morning claiming 4xRNS had been issued saying stakeholders rights would be "preserved" then I find it difficult to ignore.

I'm sorry you find me 'frustrating' and I know I talk too much about the financials but to me they are the key thing and I in turn get frustrated by those that post on them who clearly don't know what they are talking about.

Elvis - CINE ARE the DIP.

I have given up, was just curious about why CINE (the DIP) would be making such an offer.

I’m really confused now - who are CINE making this offer to? Themselves?

"I must say a big thank you to Alliance news service, for giving us x4 RNS update yesterday, of good news that CINE intend to exit chapter 11 intact, preserving value for all stakeholders"

Now you're just lying. There has been no RNS update at all never mind any claiming "preserving" of value for all stakeholders.

... of course that cash breakeven figure excludes any money spent on new machines or any other capex.

They are also a long way off profit breakeven as that's about $33k.

Going back to BITF - looking at Q3 numbers the cash breakeven number looks to have been $16k per BTC mined ($10k mining costs + $4k overheads + $2k interest). Maybe to get to $14k they are excluding interest (or something else) - or maybe they are using later numbers than Q3. Whatever the 'real' number is, it is certainly low and quite possibly the best of the bunch (and around half that for ARB).

As I said I haven’t a scooby what you’re on about or the relevance here and I’m happy to leave it at that.

Elvis - yes, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree as tbh I haven’t a clue what you’re trying to say.

Seems to me they are just trying to make sure they don’t do anything to cause them to lose the tax asset they have which seems a pretty standard thing to do and does not involve shareholders having to ‘compromise’ on anything - but if you’re reading more into it then so be it. It’s not something I can get excited about and I suspect not many others could too.

“With hundreds of millions of tax at stake, worth multiple times the current market cap that shareholders have to vote / compromise on, do you all really think this is going to zero”

Elvis - I agree with the first bit ($478m and rising) but there is nothing that shareholders are voting or compromising on here - these firms are just making sure that this value is not inadvertently lost by making sure they understand what would ‘compromise’ it.

…and of course their coins per EH in one of the worst if not the worst.

Basically a perfect storm of bad metrics leading to what I suspect is the highest cash breakeven figure among the miners.

They also don’t pay their staff as much in shares compared to most. Plus others have tapped the market more in terms of share raises so less debt and lower interest payments.

I said it slightly tongue-in-cheek but would be surprised if anybody is under $15k per BTC cash wise - but they are a contender as they are among the top ones in term of coins per EH. Will have a look later when I’m home…

Then they’re all criminal (just less so).