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What exactly does Krispy Kreme have to do with persimmon? And if your reference to 'rescued by the taxpayer' refers to persimmon and presumably then the most recent furlough scheme, then persimmon did not take a penny out of the furlough scheme.
Exstatex please be aware of the following facts. I am both a persimmon shareholder and former employee (at minion level not director before you wonder!) The terms of the Ltip scheme 2011 were voted for by all shareholders as part of the AGM in 2011. it was a 10 year plan to deliver capital returns to shareholders in the form of £6.45 over the 10 years by means of profit targets being meet in certain stages/tranches. All shareholders were given the right to vote, and you only had one vote whether you had a single share or a million shares. The delivery of this scheme was linked to bonuses paid to director in the form of shares as discounted rates, eventually discounted to 100% if the targets were met. To the best of my knowledge PSN were not financially bailed out by any cash injections other than those afforded to them by their lines of credit through banking facilities. HTB came in to play by the government to bolster a flagging housing market after the crash of 2008 and was afforded to any builder who were selling houses that met the criteria of lending. HTB was not made for PSN and they were not the only beneficiary of this. PSN, perhaps as a result of teh uptake of HTB met their targets well ahead of schedule and as a result not only paid out the £6.46 in less than the 10 years they also made amendments to the pay outs and also paid interim dividends on top of this. As a result the Ltip scheme was realised sooner than expected and with PSN performing as well as they did the share price increased well beyond anything anyone could have imagined. I believe the share price was around £10 at inception of the Ltip scheme and ended up around £28 toward the point of all the dividends being paid. Whilst my own opinion on the rights and wrongs of the scheme are irrelevant it was voted for and agreed by democratic process and therefore those involved were entitled to it as a result. If the shares had stayed at £10 then the bonuses would not have been as excessive as they were but unfortunately the share price soared so the bonuses (paid in shares not physical cash!) were valued at eyewatering amounts. however a share has no true value until its sold its merely a piece of paper with certificate on it, so if the share price collapsed tomorrow and the shares were £0.01p each then the bonus would suddenly be a whole lot less in value! Please get over it, I have and I worked there! There was no masonic collusions, government backhanders, or any other rash statements previous. It was a scheme agreed by shareholders and rigidly managed by the management across the group which delivered ahead of schedule, which frankly should in some ways be admired.
To be honest as far as I am aware PSN were not bailed out by anyone during the banking crisis. They made a ruthless decision to drastically cut back on their overheads by paying off a very large amount of staff, they realigned their costs and specifications to maximise the available margins and renegotiated a lot of their banking covenants to weather the storm. Persimmon stated in an AGM (I think 2008) that there was a financial Tsunami coming and that they would not be starting any new developments as a result. This showed foresight rather than mismanagement. Persimmons tight financial management and strong financial position pre-crash allowed them to weather the storm and if anything bailed them out it was Help to Buy scheme that bolstered and kickstarted the entire market for all. This may not be the case for all builders but for PSN I believe it to be fairly accurate.
The well documented bonuses, were voted for by shareholders as part of the capital return plan which was the 10 yr dividend return scheme. Maybe it wasn't abundantly obvious that there was a sizeable LTIP scheme attached but it was there in the paperwork. And if this scheme had been dissipated down to ALL staff, then no-one would be up in arms about it in fact i surmise that it would be hailed a as a fantastic scheme to incentivise and retain all staff. Obviously this wasn't the case so while being a moot point, is still one to ponder/consider.
As our housebuilding/construction industry in the UK contributes substantially both directly and indirectly to employment then obviously the government is going to do what it can to bolster it, after all no government will remain in power while a country is in decline and employment is on the rise constantly but that isn't the fault of a housebuilder, that is a political failing if anything.
If the banking bailout did rescue property prices then it also rescued many other things as well. Property cannot be held to blame for the bailout that they benefited from as a secondary effect? that's much like saying its ford cars issue that my neighbour was killed by a drunk driver because they made the car that hit him?
fundamentally PSN are a business who, like any other business, are out to make a profit. They are governed by financial regulations as well as building regulations that they need to adhere to. for this forum they seem to be doing what they need to do and as a result their current share price is on the rise as a result.
Exstatex, the system wasnt bailed out. the banks were. the housebuilders survived under their own steam but the HtB scheme, produced by the goverment allowed a generation who had grown up never having to have savings of their own, to buy property (previous 100 and 125% mortgages are proof of this previous failing and again were bank led offerings), did allow the then flagging housing market to continue as it is one of the biggest contributors both directly and indirectly to employment in the UK. The director bonuses were linked to company performance and a capital return plan over a 10 year period all of which was voted in by shareholders so there was a democratic process, they didnt just sit in the board room in york and decide to shell out millions to themselves. The company vastly over performed on expectation again due to HtB (the goverment scheme) and as the bonus which was actually an LtiP was paid in shares meant that as the share value increased thsu did the amount of bonus acheivable. The share price was a little over £10 when this LtiP was brought in and at one point hit £28, which no-one ever really saw coming back in darkest 2011 at inception of thsi scheme. As for Fred Goodwin, he doesnt, hasnt and wont ever work for Persimmon thus is a moot point not applicable to this forum and is quite frankly just a rant on your part. touching back on the LtiP (bonus scheme) each shareholder at time of inception was due to benefit by £6.25 per share (remembering the shares were only worth just over £10 at time of inception) over a 10 year period provided the company met its performance targets, which they exceeded and also paid additional dividends over and above the £6.25, to the shareholders so its not just the 'fat cats' that benefitted it was also average joe's like myself, you know....the ones you say were screwed over. in fact Pesimmon have paid me back £9.55 to date from shares I owned in at the start of the scheme that were valued at just over £10 so clearly not all the money has stayed in house.
As for JF keeing his bonus or at least 75% of it, well while I think its an eyewatering amount of money it was a deal agreed by shareholders. if you bought a lottery ticket and landed £100m as a jackpot and they came and said "well we never expected it to quite be as much as that as a payout, we think its a bit excessive and you really shouldnt get all that" the answer would generally be, "yeah right, tough, give me my money". its really no different. he didnt steal it, he was paid it as part of a contractual agreement. I know very little about the man other than I think he was in teh right place at the right time and financially got lucky, much like the lottery.
Do I think 'the system' is flawed, yeah probably but no systems perfect anyway so there is no 'nirvana' to be found as someone will always be unhappy somewhere.
i've tried to make light of your posts previously but gotta be honest, its boring the pants of me now.
lots of love
peace
"If not sorted i refuse to pay any more tax, recognise any royal authority, vote in any elections, hold a bank account etc"
firstly - refuse to pay any more tax? I beleive Lester Piggot had a similar idea that didnt pan out too well for him, but good luck with it though
secondly - recognise any royal authority? whilst I'm sure they're absolutely bricking it at that thought, its fairly inconsequential as goverment policy and law is what governs the UK. But I dont really see Lizzie getting that bent out of shape that you refuse to recognise her authority as it wont change her position in any way.
thirdly - vote in any elections? thats utterly counter intuitive to your whole arguement that things are wrong and need changed, so what you will do is not use your right to vote and assert your viewpoint during the only opportunity afforded to you by the very establishment you say do what they want and dont allow anyone to voice their opinion.
fourthly - hold a bank account? well that may hurt them a bit, not if you singularly do it but as a whole group of people and it would need to be a lot, howvere that would mean you'd need to be a frugal wee saver to not have a mortgage (provided by banks) car loan (provided by banks) or the many other now day to day items that are funded by means beyond which the average person can cover by their own hard earned coinage.
you really do seem a tightly wound and stressed out puppy over all of this but frankly.........this is a share forum used by guys and gals (or any non binary amongst us) that just wanna watch whats happening to their portfolio or retirement nest egg etc and maybe spitball on what might or might not be a good time to buy in or bail out (I apologies i know 'bail out' is like a trigger word that may set you off again)
I dont post very often, as i'm just a shareholder hoping to cash in later down the line and land a bob or two but i'm worried about you! it really gets to you, you re-post the same stuff all the time and I'm scared you might be so tightly wound up that eventually the red mist decsends and you ........... well lets not even contemplate what could happen.
Seriously, chill out a bit, realise that theres things that you cant change, things are always going to seem an injustice but thats unfortunately just life and you may be a little less stressed over it all.
Failing that you might just need a bit of the other to de-stress you?
I hope you find your inner calm and move on to a happier existance, if not let me know and I can sort you out with a couple of names for a bit of guaranteed 'hubba hubba'
peace out!
Exstatex, seriously! grab a plackard and go protest outside their head office. its in Fulford York. this is a forum for disucssions on shares, not austerity, bail outs, green bills, global warming, masonic underbelly that infiltrates all of society, the state of the middle east, the eroding of the rainforest, whether the moon landings were real or not, who shot JFK (not sure if you have rambled on about all of these I tend to give up on your drivel early doors). Have a nice day and be happy, you seem and angry person. Love you!