Member Info for devonplay

04-Apr-22 16:02:18 2.14 2,920 Sell* 2.10 2.30 62.49 O
04-Apr-22 15:23:29 2.2495 100,000 Buy* 2.10 2.30 2,250 O
04-Apr-22 14:25:16 2.14 24,880 Sell* 2.10 2.30 532.43 O
04-Apr-22 13:57:34 2.135 25,000 Sell* 2.10 2.30 533.75 O
04-Apr-22 12:47:57 2.20 23,075 Sell* 2.20 2.30 507.65 O
04-Apr-22 12:35:11 2.25 50,000 Unknown* 2.20 2.30 1,125 O
04-Apr-22 12:19:25 2.22 150,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 3,330 O
04-Apr-22 12:17:46 2.225 250,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 5,563 O
04-Apr-22 12:14:21 2.20 100,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 2,200 O
04-Apr-22 12:11:42 2.20 250,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 5,500 O
04-Apr-22 11:45:56 2.201 1,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 22.01 O
04-Apr-22 11:01:06 2.20 8,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 176.00 O
More red again today?

And yet Pearls we are exactly within the price range I predicted months ago 1.8-2.2, when you was suggesting we'd be at 20p by now....so yes, please encourage people to look back at the sage advice and avoid your nonsense.
You are sounding rattled again. Is that because you can feel that 1.8 in coming round the corner? LOL

"He advised that at least 900,000 of the trades today were buy trades. In fact only the last two trades are definitely sells as is the second trade of 1000 shares. I know who I believe........"
They must be offering to buy lower than the current price then. Otherwise the price would go up, NOT DOWN AS IT DID TODAY. That fits in with my view that it's still over priced. Thanks for sharing that comment. Buyers must be driving the price lower....
1.8 round the corner?

Flashed up again today on my search algo. As I mentioned last week , if that happens over a few days usually a big move down. I can see lots of sells:
04-Apr-22 14:25:16 2.14 24,880 Sell* 2.10 2.30 532.43 O
04-Apr-22 13:57:34 2.135 25,000 Sell* 2.10 2.30 533.75 O
04-Apr-22 12:47:57 2.20 23,075 Sell* 2.20 2.30 507.65 O
04-Apr-22 12:35:11 2.25 50,000 Unknown* 2.20 2.30 1,125 O
04-Apr-22 12:19:25 2.22 150,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 3,330 O
04-Apr-22 12:17:46 2.225 250,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 5,563 O
04-Apr-22 12:14:21 2.20 100,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 2,200 O
04-Apr-22 12:11:42 2.20 250,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 5,500 O
04-Apr-22 11:45:56 2.201 1,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 22.01 O
04-Apr-22 11:01:06 2.20 8,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 176.00 O
Looking weak...1.8 coming on?

All sells:
01-Apr-22 10:10:08 2.10 29,306 Sell* 2.20 2.30 615.43 O
01-Apr-22 10:09:50 2.20 10,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 220.00 O
01-Apr-22 10:02:06 2.225 89 Sell* 2.20 2.30 1.98 O
01-Apr-22 09:19:22 2.20 37,068 Sell* 2.20 2.30 815.50 O
01-Apr-22 08:35:22 2.20 10,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 220.00 O
- looks very week on my algo. Few days of it showing up usually indicates a fall. Maybe 1.8 on the table?

CGL is also selling off. Now below IPO and looks like it's on a downwards path.
Except for a few retail punters, looks like most think the Emperor's new clothes have more than a few moth holes.
With DTY's performance less than sparkling, CGL looking downward and 84% of the NFT's (Naff For Twits) going unsold then you've go to wonder if SGI's support (Phoenix) are losing the will to keep the oxygen flowing.

The article opens with the word...."I'm no expert" LOL

Pearls never believes there are sellers, so:
28-Mar-22 13:49:16 2.20 42,887 Sell* 2.20 2.30 943.51 O
28-Mar-22 13:06:00 2.20 20,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 440.00 O
28-Mar-22 13:05:12 2.201 10,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 220.10 O
28-Mar-22 10:24:32 2.201 234 Sell* 2.20 2.30 5.15 O
28-Mar-22 09:26:35 2.201 6,313 Sell* 2.20 2.30 138.95 O
28-Mar-22 08:00:08 2.20 20,000 Sell* 2.20 2.30 440.00 O
LOL

"The Times recommendation" isn't this recommendation actually from a 33 yrs old nurse, who want to to diversify his portfolio.....unless, he's got a multi 100,000 quid portfolio, putting 10k in this seems like a rookie error. None event, I'd take more guidance form the multiple sellers this morning. Still sits in my 1.8-2.2 target range.

So, to be clear:
I've posted the regs showing you can hold property in a SIPP, HMRC site etc
Ive posted a link showing you that private shares can be held in multiple managers SIPPS, from InvestmentSense.
I've explained the transaction.
I've explained how unlisted shares held in an ISA/SIPP get treated by a stockbroker manager.
You've confirmed “ Raven shareholders down but not (completely) out” BUT NOT OUT"
"“ While investors would no longer own the assets of the company, they would keep an economic interest in the business in the shape of two existing unsecured loans and non-voting preference shares.”"" as I've explained several times.
And you now need me to explain "It really is obvious … who does one buy from and who does one sell unlisted stocks to?" you sell them to other investors via subscription/contract or treaty. OTC "over the counter" and via specialist exchanges that offer trading in unlisted private shares. It's thin trade, but it's trade.
If you can't buy and sell shares in private companies, could you try and explain how Angels, Angel clubs, Private Equity, Hedge Funds manage to build up stakes? Why if you can't buy and sell unlisted equity HRMC remove benefits of schemes like SEIS/EIS if you sell early?
You sound like you've traded a few times, but really have very little understanding of corporate finance or investing outside a quick punt on a low cost share dealing service. Hope you've found the information helps your understanding.

“ SIPPs allow unlisted assets.”
Linked from HMRC's site https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/pensions-and-retirement/pensions-basics/self-invested-personal-pensions?source=mas#
company shares (UK and overseas)
collective investments – such as open-ended investment companies (OEICs) and unit trusts
investment trusts
property and land – but not most residential property.
mostly commercial property...I do.
"This list isn’t exhaustive – different SIPP providers offer different investment options."
Private Company Shares - list of companies allowing unlisted equity in a SIPP.
https://investmentsense.co.uk/sipp-zone/help-choosing-your-sipp/allows-unlisted-share-purchase/
The regulations allow it, but not all manager do. As I've try to explain, those that are primarily stockbrokers will usually keep the asset within their nominee, but exclude the tax benefit. Just because it's unlisted you don't become a forced seller (as you call it)...but it doesn't exclude, as I've said, an offer or consolidation as acorporate action from the company.
If you go to HMRC's site you can research the whole SIPP regs.
You are doubly welcome. ;)

" customers to make informed decisions no documentation, no can buy."
Of course you can't buy, the shares are suspended, but as you still hold them they will remain yours inside the nominees holding account. Some will transfer them outside of the wrapper, but still within their nominee structure. So if , for example , you hold them inside an ISA they will transfer them to a trading account. As there is no market they will appear as 0 value.
“ - a nominal consideration of 670 million prefs, plus a 40 million debt and a 1,1 billion rouble issue with all other cash in "RRHCL" returned to RAV. All against assets valued @ c400m.”
- as per the RNS.
The cost for unlisted assets look large in comparison, but that only because you have to compare them to normal market size trades, some unlisted debt, for example, is only tradable in £100k or 200k blocks, but can still be held inside a SIPP and the fees look larger but they are comparable to the market size.
- if it helps. I bought several shares holdings that are covered under the professionals only/complex product labels this week, as they take time to complete, I asked 2 brokers if my understanding of holding de-listed stock inside a tax wrapper was correct. RAV. They confirmed that if the stock couldn't be held inside the tax wrapper they would move it to trading account, if you had one, and ask you create one if you didn't. They do they transfer at 0 value as there's no market price as such. From experience , some will leave them inside the wrapper, but make any payments back outside it.
Just to help you:
"There is no binding obligation on the Company to exercise the option and its exercise is solely at the discretion of the Company. In the event the option is exercised, the Company would retain an economic interest in RRHCL via existing unsecured loans of £41 million and Rub1.1 billion to RHHCL and non voting preference shares of £678 million, attracting a coupon of 8%, 15% and 10% per annum respectively and with a term of ten years until maturity." ....hope that makes it clearer for you. They've sold RHHCL, but hold debt and senior position in the cap. table in the company.
"The Transaction is structured as a put option for nominal cost in the Company's favour"...a nominal cost in the "Company's favour".
We don't know the maturity profile of those prefs, but let say it's a normal redemption , meaning the company, RHHCL, need to redeem them at par, issue price, in 10 years (payback £678 million) and until them pay a blended coupon of say 12%....8%, 15% and 10% . Of course, subject to the sate of the Russian economy and trade., to RAV.
As they've mentioned they have a 10 year maturity, that suggests they might be redeemable prefs., but they do say they aren't convertable, so if they do pay the coupon and redeem the prefs for the par price, then the prefs get cancelled and the assets get owned unencumbered by the parent company of RHHCL, Prestino Investments Ltd. From what we kn

"The share ownership is indeed passed on to Russian management ..... current equity holder receive a "nominal consideration"."
- a nominal consideration of 670 million prefs, plus a 40 million debt and a 1,1 billion rouble issue with all other cash in "RRHCL" returned to RAV. All against assets valued @ c400m.
""you can hold" - but not much good if one cannot hold is it? Pedantic point."
"But you can hold." SIPPS allow unlisted assets. Some managers don't allow them. The big risk is there's a consolidation of the ordinary shares or your nominee will sell if there's an offer with out consulting you or calling a vote. They can't just disenfranchise from an asset you hold because it's wrapper status has changed. In my own experience, I've owned a Bermuda listed Russian hedge fund via a trading platform, I held the stock through their nominee when the company de-isted and they forwarded on the 6 monthly reports and allowed me, and other investors, to exit when the company provided the usual hedge fund liquidity events. Before that, they offered me the opportunity to hold the stock in my own name directly with the private company outside of it's wrappers.
"Russian owners, in a sanctioned Russia ... with zero loyalty to the west .. are more likely to worry if they do not receive the order of Lenin from Putin ... than reputation in the west .... do excuse the sarcasm."
Some Russian owners in an unsanctioned Cyprus company with Russian assets you mean. The pref's still form part of the cap table, so they are part of the ownership structure. In fact they rank more senior than the ordinary shares in the cap than you would expect the new management team now to be owners of. Loyalty to the west? Except the debt, the major shareholders, the apparently British citizens in the management team and the future liquidity pool western capital will provide. If you felt there was no rule of law in Russia, why did you even consider owning the pref's in the first case? Did you not take the experience of the team in navigating Russian politics into consideration or the inherent risks in Russia anyway? It seems an odd thing to suggest now, that the management team you invested in would just throw away something to corrupt managers or are corrupt themselves.
"If the put option goes through." but according to your logic it's irrelevant, just the process of de-listing, according to your previous statements, makes them nil value anyway.
I hold RAV shares and RAV prefs for the voting rights and income. 1:5 ratio. I have no overall substantial concerns as it's c1.2% of my (high yielding) portfolio. It now appears as a rounding error, but I agree any upside from here is going to be a bonus. I don't expect much.Overall, I think the proposed transactions makes sense. it's better to have an voluntary event, than an involuntary event down the road because you can't comply with the listing requirements.

".. for a nominal sum .... so read my posts below ... 5p a share maybe?"
-it's a nominal fee for the option. What the assets are worth it a totally different conversation.
"Yes it does" - you agree then whinge on.
- if you consider it whining, providing an understanding how unlisted assets provide a payment method, when payments are not transacted via a service registrar.
Depends upon the SIPP provider - as I say, you can hold a wide range of assets within a SIPP, INCLUDING unlisted equity, fixed income and commercial property.
"that destroys their public and professional profiles" - Oh dear ..... but you are unable to prove any evidence of impropriety?
Why bother to counter argue whilst adding nothing? - maybe to provide information...
Seems a case of verbal doo doo. - LOL..yet you're the one who need to start slinging around the insults.

"Google Trends suggest that this research has not led to a sustained interest in the topic"
https://www.statista.com/chart/27030/google-search-interest-in-nft/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statista

"to allow it to dispose of the entire issued ordinary share capital of Raven Russia (Holdings) Cyprus Limited ("RRHCL") (being the existing owner of all of the Group's Russian assets and related debt) to its Russian management team, for nominal consideration."
Doesn't it fit exactly with that, as it's the sale of the equity holding in a subsidiary?
"It's the transfer of untradeable stock out of the SIPP/ISA wrapper that is difficult. SIPP holders will be obliged to sell. They cannot transfer untradeable stock out of a SIPP wrappper."
You can hold unlisted equity inside a SIPP, you can also hold unlisted Bonds, even if they are only traded on an OTC basis.. there may be some variation from provider to provider. I believe the companies need to have at least 3 years of accounts, which RAV has, and must not be over 75% of the total value of your SIPP total value.
"I'm pointing out that RAV as the holding company, with debt, being paid from preference shares held in Prestino Investments Ltd as a part of the transaction also needs a mechanism to pay preference share holders in RAVP."
Yes it does, first of all it needs a relevant way to manage it's currency issues, but beyond that it only needs a share register and paying agent. In the same way that unlisted corporate bonds and private companies operate.
"with the additional possibility, that with equity transferred to Prestino Investments Ltd there is no incentive to keep RAV solvent - so directors can let RAV implode, keep the assets and let banks nurse their losses."
Except that they write off £200 million, the difference between the value of the assets and the put option pref's value and after 20 plus years of running a public company decide to act in a way that destroys their public and professional profiles and face the possibility of banks suing them for the not inconsiderable 600 million of debt and the investors doing the same for dereliction of their duties as company directors.

On the positive side, well you know what I mean, the majority of the debt is Rouble based, the rents are Rouble based and there's an inflationary background. I thought the last debt was financed at 5.5% and if they rents are being paid and are inflation linked, c20% increase, which give it's Russian you might put in a lease and put a fix on your debt, then there maybe more headroom that we anticipate. Alongside the cumulative nature of the RAVP pref's, so they accumulate, but don't have to get paid.
I also seem to remember a significant number of the lets were to global brands, what impact/benefit that has, has yet to be seen. We may find Western business have stopped activities, but pre-paid rents to avoid losing the space or having their stock sit in the streets!
So if the debt average was 5.5% and 40% was in Euros, which they can't pay because of currency control, and there's no pref payments to fund, perhaps it's not quite as bleak in the short term, as long as the Russian economy doesn't completely implode and we return to some semblance of normality in the next few months.
You can understand the listing, if you can't place a value on assets, alongside maybe not wanting the public profile it brings, then a voluntary de-listing makes sense.
As far as the Russian Management is concerned, I saw the headline name, but I'm sure I found the NewCo when searching the Cyprus register of Companies, and the rest of them have anglacised their names.

"My reading is that ordinary shareholders are just about wiped out … by the put option …. Since that equity is gone by virtue of agreeing tonthe put option …"
- they've sold equity in the form of a put option, not the holding company, so the shares in the holding company still exist. The value is debatable, but the existence is not. The use of a consolidation remains a risk.
"what happens to holders of RAVP preference shares is unclear … and difficult because as a delisted company any rights will not be suitable for SIPP or ISA wrappers …. So those folk will similarly be forced to sell or will equally be wiped out."
Similarly, the RAVP shares are help in the holding company, not in the subsidiary. They probably won't be suitable, but they can of course be held outside on an ISA/SIPP. It's a simple transfer of the assets to a un-nominated holding outside of a wrapper.
"the preference shares mentioned in the new holding Cyprus company will be used to pay off debt held by the now shell company Raven Properties"
I'm trying to work out how that works? The limited cash in "RRHCL" gets returned to "RPG", there's then a £ and rouble debt between "RRHCL" and "RPG", in "RPG's" favour, and a potential non-cash transfer of assets, the put option, settled in non voting preference shares in RHHCL. Where does the cash come from to settle the external bank debt? Are you suggesting the banks will accept a default on RAV's debt and accept settlement in the form of RRHCL's non voting preference shares ? Or that RAV will somehow find a buyer of those non voting preference shares? Someone willing to pay £678 million to acquire £437 million of assets?

I rarely find paying a premium satisfactory.
I think we are working with assumptions at the moment, so we can only guess what's happening to the debt structuring. I know they were working towards it all being Rouble based. I get where you are going with the "RRHCL at 31 December 2021 had net assets equivalent to £437 million" v "the Company would retain an economic interest in RRHCL via existing unsecured loans of £41 million and Rub1.1 billion to RHHCL and non voting preference shares of £678 million, attracting a coupon of 8%, 15% and 10% per anum respectively and with a term of ten years until maturity." Maybe that does suggest the debt will remain on the RPG's balance sheet, but secured against the loans and prefs. We don't know what the mix of the instruments is (8-15%), but we do know the broad financing costs were 5.5% in the last full report. I can't imagine they've negotiated the debt from secure to unsecured, but may be in the circumstances the bank would prefer RPG paper over holding a lein of a Russian building directly. Maybe the same would apply to RAVP holders as well. There been a long term reason why those assets have been held through a Cyprus entity and they've been reporting on sanctions being a risk for sometime. I maybe wrong, but I don't feel overly concerned yet about the transaction, the environment certainly yes.

If memory serves me well, the debt, bank debt is 60/40 Rouble/Euro which I believe there was a cap in place on the euro element to hedge the rouble earnings.
There's no longer any Sterling based debt, bonds, have gone.