OPEN QUESTION - I AM EXTREMELY CURIOUS IF ANYONE CAN ANSWER THIS WITH IDEALLY FACTUAL AWARENESS PLEASE:
What is stopping a short player/ hedge funds from 'borrowing' shares to sell down a share AND also take out a SHORT CFD/ DFT position? Meaning to profit from down price in share WHILST CAUSING THE DROP?!!
Please can someone really answer - who is able to monitor and control if shorters do this or not. There is a really good reason and point I want to get to... Thanks
OPEN QUESTION - I AM EXTREMELY CURIOUS IF ANYONE CAN ANSWER THIS WITH IDEALLY FACTUAL AWARENESS PLEASE:
What is a stopping a short/ hedge from 'borrowing' share to sell down a share AND also take out a SHORT CFD/ DFT position?
Please can someone really answer - who is able to monitor and control if shorters do this or not. There is a really good reason and point I want to get to... Thanks
Good question Dark_Knight. This is the point I was making the other day.
Simply 'borrowing' shares and selling them is a loss. So the shorters need another instrument to made the profit from down-fall in SP. What is that other instrument; it is CFD's, DFT's etc?
IF anything like this, and the shorters are able to control and manipulate a SP, that is strictly forbidden and illegal. Yes, I have said this before, but NO ONE is allowed to control a share price to make a gain. That's the same as saying, someone else decides when your investment should go up.
So why doesn't this also happen to ALL other stocks?? Seems like a guaranteed way to make money for these shorters. Why do they also get it wrong or take a loss and/ or cut their losses and go elsewhere??
Thanks, Dark_Knight.
Although I/ we can't see the full list of all the shorters, a lot of the players that made money on PFC took their money long time ago and not been on the list or above the 0.5% The rest of them, except GLG and Millennium have made losses.
Pictet came new and made a loss, Kairos overall loss and Astaris is overall tiny bit of gain. As someone mentioned, it seems like they are clutching straws this time?!
How do you find out how gains or losses the shorters have made with PFC?
According to the sites we mention on here, only GLG has made profits and all other shorters made a losses overall.
BUY signal pattern finally received a confirmation because the prices crossed above the confirmation level which was at 62.70p - there are profits to be made here!!
Yes, and overall a decrease - after today, let's see which one of them likes to push the limits?!?!
Good finish today. Hoping momentum continues tomorrow and onwards!
Hi Dan,
Just a thought - but I think they might have some awards to declare soon... Potentially Middle-East...
... Just been looking at all the materials published and particularly the TU last week.
From what I can see, indications of new awards are expected - I think this is imminent, and with only a week left, it looks like 2022 has already been 'closed-off' with probably very little changes to be presented.
It's all down to good conduct and communication now.
We should expect the YE particulars to be clean and crisp - focusing on 'drawing a line' and these final stage awards/ preferred bidder.
Also think need-to-know information has got out early - demand is driving the SP...
IMHO
Would Appollo try to make an offer to PFC after taking WG? Probably to have to be another PE firm to consider PFC?
It would be interesting to see what an offer would be for PFC (if any); seems like all offers making respective companies jump big!
Hi Dark_Knight - I assume you have access to the live order book? Thanks for sharing.
I feel quite confident based on the information given to date this SP will start moving to high 70s and in to 80s again from next week onwards.
Hi Dark_knight - good points.
This week is a key week and I think people are starting to read and make sense of the events leading to here and what could happen. Unless there is mechanism where people can freely drop SP as and when they feel like, what other news do we have to suggest there should be a drop?!?
You're right Dark-Knight - there is double to triple gains here for those at 60p or around that in the next year or so. I think PFC have some big deal lined up.
I am wondering what made Astaris (and others) go up last week; I think they like to push the boat, and they had biggest potential loss last time by increasing the way they were.
Personally, I think PFC have pretty much given us the bad numbers already and therefore, will just follow a 'no surprise' Year End. I just have this funny feeling they might announce something very positive next Tuesday too!
Hi Dark_Knight - no worries at all.
Glad to see this is moving in the right direction.
Berenberg Bank reiterated a price for £1.10 last week (12 Apr 2023) with BUY rating - very positive as the SP is very under valued.
I hope so too, Emerald.
Looking at buys and sells, nothing really stands out major on volumes, but has been more buys. Although, other days were more. Something is up today - has there been a leak in the City??
Pictet shorter has gone off the list.
Thanks, johnychainlocker - that is interesting.
@johnychainlocker - hi.
When I spoke to a City firm on this matter and hedge funds - the only real way to impact/ manipulate a share price is to own them; borrowing them for short sell is not the same thing. Essentially, I was told you can't sell something you don't really own. I am looking for clarity from those in the real hedge fund trades please.
CFD's and DFT's are leveraged trades and generally a £ per point (penny) - this is saying they will make a bet with a broker of a long or short - they are really just saying for example, for every penny up or down I want £50K, £100K etc.
The share price should on its own natural merits go up and down based on real market sentiment. However, should the hedge funds also buy real shares, which they can do and then suddenly drop them or stage sell them, WITH a short position, this is market abuse and there it is considered market manipulation which is a serious matter (criminal and civil).
This is why I am saying it is paper-based, because the trade is purely on 'paper' based on price/ penny movement. CFD's are little more complex as they have expiry dates, however, they are temporary ownership which is not supposed to be the same as a companies Share Register.
In short these hedges are taking part in speculative/ spread trading activities and they are NOT allowed to engage in real market shares for their own portfolio gains. If anyone is aware if this with PFC, you should report them immediately.
Personally, I don't think its the shorters alone, but there is other parties - usually referred to market maker or book-maker; if those people are in any way restricting the flow of direction - this is a serious offence.
Look at today- there are just buys and buys coming through but how is the movement of the SP, little upward. HOWEVER, as soon there is a tiny bit of sell, the SP drops, and even drops on NO NEWS, as many pointed out.
Shares are on supply and demand as most of us know; if the demand is there like crazy, then the price has to rise accordingly until orders are filled. Unless of course, there is a NEED to keep the offer price low, which begs the question of investigating the investment managers' and firms acting for PFC or hedge funds.
Agree on patience, but the price movement is ridiculous, and NO ONE really knows why PFC has done what it has. This is the lowest of low. After everything that has happened and a mega contract, how do you or anyone else explain the current SP is a true reflection on real events/ facts. Just saying.