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Nightmare share Nightmare posts GLA
Flashy … 100%
I think at risk groups would require the booster first before trying to get the virus. That looks to dramatically reduce severe disease and infection spread. Thanks.
TW, it looks that way to me.
There are more ACE2 Gene receptors in adipose cells, hence 90% of all Covid deaths worldwide are in obese people - more ACE2 Gene receptors by default/ more points of entry put aside weaker immune system
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/03/covid-deaths-high-in-countries-with-more-overweight-people-says-report
Take the U.K. in isolation, think it still stands we have one of the highest obese ratio’s in Europe
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10110422/britain-obesity-epidemic-europe-death/
It looks like the USA has taken the view Covid 19 is not going to be eradicated, no boosters for under 65’s, plans to open their borders, however like the U.K. they have an obesity problem, how do they deal with from a Covid 19 point of view if vaccines wane?
Testing & Boosters for older generation / vulnerable groups
It feels this is the way it’s going?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/59272
"What we need to do now is, after you've been double vaccinated, you should actually get the virus. "
I understand the underlying sentiment, but given some double vaxxed people will still die if they get covid, do you take the small chance (maybe bigger depending on age, conditions, viral load, and probably some stuff we don't know) that you'll end up dead or with long covid, or do you continue to try to stop getting it.
I wonder has it now been concluded by those in the know, that even if every single person has good vaxx protection, the infectiousness of covid and the ability of covid to infect and/or make ill a proportion of vaxxed people, is such that covid will not get to such a low R number that it dies out .
From what I understand is that being infected by a variant will give you greater protection against other variants than just the vaccines which are tailored to a certain spike protein. I think govt should start selling 'Covid sweets' that have a low viral load in them and dissolve on the tongue - take one a few weeks after your second vaccination.....just like those rubella parties....
Good thanks Flashy.......weird to have totally lost taste/smell but now almost fully recovered. I wonder what % of population has actually suffered one of the variants in the last 18 months and what impact such would have on future risk. I know the consortium can now provide a sort of 'measure' of strength of antibodies which I feel would be a useful test to have. Although as far as vaccinations, HMG seem to want to carry on regardless.
Awzx - I hope you're doing OK? I think the booster shots are v definitely required imo - look at Israel - massive infection numbers but low hospitalisation. Dr John Campbell on Youtube did a spot on this yesterday - conclusion was a booster should reduce infection by 11x, and hospitalisations by 20x. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVtX7tY1B0U
Am 1 in the 70 Flashy having had a version of it late August. Makes consideration of the booster vs now antibodies an easier decision.
What we need to do now is, after you've been double vaccinated, you should actually get the virus.
flashy - that is my thinking exactly. vax takes brunt out of infectiuon but then natural antibodies
What we need to do now is, after you've been double vaccinated, you should actually get the virus. This will give you a much greater resistance to it and variants going forward than just being vaccinated. Herd immunity is the only way out if we can't contain the virus - it's far too late to stop it now, so letting people catch it after vaccination is the best option. And with about 754,600 (1 in 70) of England's population estimated to have had it in the last week of August or so, then give it until until the end of this year and it will probably have gone through the majority of the population once over. Then it should be like the common cold....hopefully. So if you aren't vaccinated - I think you should get it done - the stats are pretty clear (esp if you are in a risk group).
TWatcher nothing to disagree with there. For my part I do believe that those in power want to do the right thing and work with the best interests of the public in mind. But, and you knew it was coming, I also believe that we all need to take our own view, read and understand what we can and influence our politicians, who like us are only human, to take the best decision even if it is harder to make - I do not pretend to know all of the facts and sometimes my view will be proved wrong, I am willing to change my opinion as the facts change and, like you, merely a layman, I just offer my opinion as I see it.
There are few different things in here.
is the strategy right...i.e. is dosing everyone with vaccine just pushing a bigger problem down the line.
Are the vaccines safe
Most of these things ultimately come down to whether you trust the decisions the experts are making or not.
For example on strategy, you might say doesn't giving the flu vaccine year after year just eventually lead to an really bad flu that kills 100ks in the UK 1 year. It hasn't so far, but can you take that and extrapolate to covid...i've no idea, but then like the rest of us I'm just a layman.
Is it right to compare the carefulness of prescribing antibotics with the ease of giving vaccines, well i know one is for bacterial and the other for virus, but does that mean/not mean that you can make different decisions...dunno.
Safety...I think this is relatively well sorted from what I've read, and been informed by a few people I know that work in tangential areas of chemistry. My understanding is that there hasn't been a history of a vaccine ending up with long term side effects, side effects present early on, within a few weeks. I understand that the pizer and moderna vaccines are using a novel technique, so maybe historic data can not be extrapolated to those.
Unfortunately, like anything in science, there will always be a body of people (and often times people well respected in their field) that tell you the opposite of what the general community of scientist are tell you, and you can be sure that history will show that sometimes that smaller body was right. But history will also show that a vast majority of time, the main body was right. We are in different times now to, with almost unlimited swaths of money up for grabs for vaccine companies, or associated treatments.
It still comes down to whether you trust those making the decisions to be doing so honourably and with the best public heath at heart, and on good data. Because you and I can do all the reading in the world, but you don't become an expert from googling stuff.
Thanks Captain, I agree but it is a brave GOVERNMENT scientist that comes out with anything other than the HMG’s line and as they used to say ‘nobody is ever sacked by buying IBM’ although that now sounds a little ridiculous. There are no easy decisions and one size does not fit all but indeed as the FDA amongst others have just said no need to give booster jabs to healthy people under 65. The JVCI did not recommend vaccinating children but on we go as those in power are actually scared to say no need fearing criticism - if Covid become vaccine resistant then criticism will be too late. I do not envy them their task.
bigbangs - i saw clearly where you were coming from. i was just adding my thoughts. it is refreshing to be able to talk about it without someone on either extreme shouting "conspiracy theorist/anti vax" or "sheeple following everything gov say"....
i am in the middle....concerned over virus and possible long term implications of vaccines. i was very aware of the thalidomide generation
i think that the covid vaccine will follow pretty much like a flu vaccine - in having to be updated every year and no guarantee that you still wont catch it
Apologies sledegy.
Sledges, sorry but the vaccine is effective against the delta variant just not as effective as we had hoped and even with are best intentions we were never lead to believe it would be 100% effective. The vaccine gives, I believe, protection against all current variants as it is effective against the core protein. Antibody testing shows that you have protection against the core protein and so in my opinion is very useful.
Thank you Captain but I think we come at this from different directions. I believe that the development of the vaccine was a marvellous thing. I am not concerned by which jab, probably because I am not a scientist and believe that both are good. I had COVID at Christmas, it was unpleasant but not life threatening, a friend caught it some months later and nearly died so it affects us all differently. Although I probably did not need it I was happy to take the vaccine in May as I thought it was the right thing to do as a member of society. The vaccine has certainly saved lives. My issue comes as we learn more and as the mass vaccination has become so successful. We could all routinely be given antibiotics to kill of many virus’s with which some of us may from time to time become infected we are encouraged not to as this would lead to resistant strains of infection making the antibiotics useless and that is my worry with the vaccine. I believe to a large extent we have done the job and should now reserve the vaccine for those in particular need to keep it effective. My daughter of school age caught COVID at the same time as I did but shrugged it off over overnight, why then give it to al children who are likely to be only mildly affected - let them catch it and develop antibodies. So to with the majority of us - other than the old or unwell who of course we should protect I now believe we should scale back our use of the vaccine and that antibody testing is a could start, at this stage in the cycle I would be content to hold off on the vaccine, certainly the booster if you have antibodies, use of our (ABDX) test would be a valuable tool to ensure that the benefits of the vaccine are not lost by the unfortunate appearance of a resistance COVID strain. Please be of no doubt that I still firmly believe in antigen testing and that we should all be responsible for testing ourselves regularly as each time we pass on the virus it has the opportunity to mutate but do not rush to use booster jabs as this could easily dilute the effectiveness of the vaccine we have.
BigBangs
Good post.
I believe the problem with the current vaccines is that they are ineffective against the Delta variant. You can have two jabs and high antibodies for whatever antibodies this jab gives you, but a high antibody count isn't going to help you against Delta or possibly any new variant post Delta.
So, a high antibody count could have no influence of how your body copes with Covid, its a false sense of security.
bigbangs - good post.
i have very mixed feelings on vax. i reluctantly took az as it is vector based and was not going to take anything mRNA based. it is too early to tell of any long term side effects and there have been too many reports of adverse reactions. i really don't think vaccinating children who would seem to be at little risk a good thing.
booster jabs would mainly seem to be mRNA based and I am not keen. personally now i am vaccinated i think i would prefer to catch a mild dose and have some naturally forming antibodies
i do hope antibody tests whether yes/no or strip coloured to indicate degree become freely available - and it would be great if ours were used. i just hope that the gov don't look at the pfaffle to get ODX to finalise talks on the antigen test and decide to go elsewhere - to someone who can
TWatcher, all good points and it is not an easy fix. I think the basis for my argument is that I am becoming increasingly concerned at the push for vaccination. I have previously commented that I am against vaccinating children but I would now go further and say I am generally against wide scale booster jabs for all. Let me be clear, I believe the old (perhaps over 70’s) should get one, those in a care home or in any with underlying health conditions fine but other than that I am not convinced - and have recently been backed up by the FDA who are also conflicted. I am not an anti vaxer by any means and have had by two jabs but I fear that similar to the concerns with antibiotics that the more (possibly) unnecessary vaccine will lead to a virus that become resistant to and therefore avoids the vaccine leaving us in a world of trouble. Once you have vaccinated the old and unwell and given them a booster I feel we should proceed with caution - the bite will have largely been removed from the virus making it something that, like flu, we can live with. The use of a possibly imperfect antibody test would help identify those with and without some cover and we should base our decision for further vaccination on that. Seeking for the perfect antibody at the expense of a good antibody test that we already have is dangerous and we should get on with taking the antibody tests we have, supply them to everyone as we do with antigen tests and this might give us a better insight as to the way forward rather than rushing forward blindly vaccinating everyone just because we can.
BigBangs, isn' it in part logistics and surity of result ?
To dial in an LFT test into the decision making of getting a booster, you need every person eligible for a booster to take an LFT. So logistically, you don't want people sitting around a vaccination centre waiting 10 mins for a result, so this is something that would be done at home. You can't read an LFT after an hr or so, so the person themselves read the result and make the decision not to get a booster.
The colour line chart is such a complication that they are only advising it for research, so you are back to a simple line/no line. So the question is, is the faintest of faint lines enough to determine a person doesn't need a booster ?
At the moment I don't think any professional body or gov have come out and said you can deduce anything from having an antibody LFT result in a largely vaccinated country. In a largely unvaccinated one, an antibody result means you have antibodies from a previous infection, which there is data now that indicates this is strong protection (although there are the odd reports of people catching covid twice). CK said this very thing in the July RNS, and stated that he did not see big take-up for antibody LFTs in countries that had a good vaccination programme.
Surely the real question here is why aren’t HMG pursing the use of antibody testing with a vengeance. A report today published in the Telegraph suggests that there is considerable fear that a variant will develop in those that have been vaccinated (not the unvaccinated) that will escape the vaccine and cause significant problems. The FDA are against a rush to use booster jabs. Yet instead of pursuing large scale antibody testing which will clearly establish who is at risk and importantly who is not thereby enabling us to vaccinate only those that need it.
who else would invest in a company that wants to sell antibody tests, and yet believes the amount of antibodies makes no difference to how a person copes with a covid infection.
Sledgey121.
Twatcher's reply to you Epitomises how malicious and spiteful he can be.
He will stop at nothing to Degrade others.
He pulls up an old post of yours that you shared with us using personal details of your experience of covid at the time.
He twisted your full message and belittled you.
BJ mentioned intelligent.
Nah..downright ignorant & insecure more like.