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Started: DiveCentre, 11 Jun 2024 14:24
Last post: senseman, 14 Jun 2024 12:40
Russian economy collapse starts. 50 billion to ukraine and sanctions on russia/china banks. all inet links to russian banks severed. russians line up outside banks to withdraw savings. on the street exchange rate 200R -$1. bankrate (unobtainable) 50R = $1
western fears last 2-3 yrs always 'what happens if russia collapses and nukes get into worse hands'. just been cast aside - western leaders agree - 'only way stop Putin is make Russia fail'
'senseman 26.0.22
it is already the beginning of the end for bad mad putin - a tinpot dictator surviving via nuclear ownership
if russia takes ukraine (the size of france) it will be guerilla afghanistan on his doorstep - there is zero chance he will retain ukraine - ukraine will be ukraine again
russians will not bear to live with the shame - when demonstrations grow, russian troops will not fire on russians
russians' choice - your country a permanent pariah state, or putin gone? a no brainer!
i salute you, ukraine
SLAVA UKRAINI - GLORY TO UKRAINE
NB: The writer has lived in both countries. Ukraine is a good place to live. Russia is not'
jake broe you tube today (hugely worth a full listen)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYHosdETLPp6dpJEsgIUTmw
dive - the back of my *** packet concurs. if we see 0.8p will be a result. p6 production figures keeping dcus alive & kicking. so all eyes on next couple of months p6 figures
Using the available information I have made an estimate of revenue from the last three offloads in order to assess the amount of the next DCU payment The figure I have calculated is $116,681,260 and this has been arrived at on the basis of Brent prices of $78 for the January offload, $82 for February and $84 for May.
The eventual DCU payment will be determined by the sterling dollar exchange rate in the period leading up to the payment date at the end of September but if it remains at the current rate of 1.27 the payment should be 0.00789p or thereabouts.
"Trump is below even on Betfair. True odds are 5-1 against. Trump will lose.
HUR/Prax - projected maximum P6 standalone 8p already lying toast. We get 17.5%, they get 82.5%. What would SP be if not sold - not far short of 20p, and rising?"
Trump is a cert to win in November. A HUR share price of 20p with Labour about to come into power and who will increase the North Sea windfall tax. Dream on.
Keep taking the medication Senseman.
Started: DiveCentre, 2 Jun 2024 13:57
Last post: laserdisc, 6 Jun 2024 08:33
Unloading this morning
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:6502557/zoom:16
Ditto from senseman
With Brent currently $82 doing us no favours, production is our DCU lifeline. Jan 24 projected production was 6K bpd and falling, so P6 chugging steady 6.78K bpd in lay terms equates to Brent $93. Put another way, offload every 79 days rather than projected +90 days by now. That said, few believed HUR/Prax production projection. Is P6 explanation being that sandstone oil seeping into rock fissures as pressure equalises? Fingers crossed next few months.
Recent OPEC+ meeting extended cuts to Dec 1 next meeting - meaning unlikely Brent will crash. Big unknown is politics/war - by whatever miracle oil price so far has confounded history by escaping huge increase usually lasting 3-6 months
Thank you Laser and Dive for your continued input, I, and (I'm sure) many others appreciate it.
Correction:
April figure for oil should read 6.78, not 6.75.
Dive Centre Thanks for the heads up just looked at April all does seem good next tanker watch early AUGUST then cheers laser
Dive centre i notice altera wind still waiting to unload
its possibly going to unload at a crude oil tank farm and a pier at the oil port in Rostock. i believe that oil tank farm has a link to a refinary in Germany where prax now have a 37.5% interest Perhaps sales from Lancaster not going usual route to BP I don't know just speculation from me
The Rostock-Schwedt oil pipeline transports crude oil from the port of Rostock to the PCK refinery in Schwedt, in the former East Germany. It is owned by PCK, the owner of the refinery in Schwedt. PCK is owned by Rosneft, Shell, and Eni.
Hi DiveCentre LOOKS A FULL LOAD
ALTERA WIND departed from Port AOKA MIZU
at 2024-05-17 08:42 Local Time (2024-05-17 08:42 UTC)
Hi Lasedisc
Altera Wave has just in the last hour or so departed Lancaster en route to Rostock reporting a draught of 12.3.
Hi DiveCentre,
You were spot on with the dates this Thursday 16th May Altera Wind due to arrive Lancaster
Started: suresh786, 8 May 2024 12:16
Last post: HANK13, 8 May 2024 17:19
POSSIBLE/PROBABLE – "GUIDE"
2x year. End of March & September
Probably 0.6p end of March 2024
Probably 0.9p end of September 2024
Probably 0.6p end of March 2025
Probably 0.6p end of September 2025
Probably 0.3p end of March 2026
Probably 0.3p end of September 2026
Possibly 0.3p end of March 2027
Can you someone please list, Since hurricane bought by Prax, how much money per share with dates.
Thanks a lot
Started: littlened, 20 Apr 2024 13:27
Last post: senseman, 4 May 2024 09:27
Thanks Laser. Huge figure well above HUR/Prax projections - fills tanker every 78 days so currently 4.5 tankers pa rather than 4 - longer we stay under 90 day cycle and over 4 full tanks pa the better.
Shame Brent retraced from 90 to current 83 with offload due soon. Be nice if both metrics sang the same helpful tune at least for a couple of offloads
MARCH daily production reported @ 6730
No updates from prax you can look on this link for production in arrears March figs are due for release in the next day or so
https://nstauthority.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=984eeea3b1664049b12c02a28478bdaa
Have Prax given a performance update of the well recently ?
Started: Brightsideoflife, 11 Apr 2024 18:32
Last post: jakeK, 23 Apr 2024 11:00
Me too, into my FirstDirect ISA where they shouldn't have gone as DCUs have been switched, by them, to my Sharedealing account. SIGH!
Have finally received the funds this morning
I spoke to FirstDirect, part of HSBC, about this payment. They say they are aware and are chasing this actively. They also said that some banks pay out on the due date but they wait till they've received it. Very canny.
Brightsideoflife
In that case there is no doubt that you are entitled to the DCU payment. Speak to HSBC again and ask them to comfirm you are entitled and when you will receive payment. If they cannot give a satisfactory answer raise the matter as a formal complaint. You need to make a formal complaint so you can take it to the regulator should that become necessary. You might also ask HSBC if they intend to resolve the issue that has delayed payment so that it does not happen next time.
The shares were purchased when it was Hur from 2 years ago, I received the 1st dcu 2nd October with no issues - it's all very frustrating to have to keep chasing this up
Started: senseman, 9 Apr 2024 14:10
Last post: sharvey44, 11 Apr 2024 08:30
I didn't have to activate my account. It let me withdraw the funds without any other issues
Sharvey - did you have to activate your fund and share account before you withdrew funds?
Yes, harvey, same here. need leave £50 in account or wont allow one to proceed. only way to get all funds out is to sell all dcus, then you can withdraw all funds to zero balance
My issue with my HL F&S account was that when I tried to extract all of the DCU payment HL informed me that they would close my account if I didn't leave a minimum amount in the account. Not wanting to run the risk that I may lose the DCU holding in the account I had to leave some cash in it.
My 'Fund & Share' account exists only because HL instigated it to hold DCUs. It has never seen any other activity. Yesterday I withdrew DCU funds from it trouble-free.
2 friends today reported to me that when they tried similar via the 'Withdraw Funds' tab, they were met with a 'Technical Issue' message which prevented them continuing. Explanation when they phone HL was that account was deemed 'inactive' until they agreed account terms and conditions declaration read to them by phone. They listened, agreed, the HL agent pressed a button at HL HQ, and immediately the 'Withdraw Funds' tab worked and they withdrew funds.
HL could provide no explanation as to i) how this was not required on my (and presumably others' accounts ii) how HL set up these accounts prior to terms and conditions declaration being agreed iii) why HL did not message HUR-holding clients informing them account could not be used (ie funds withdrawn) until and unless client rang HL to expedite declaration requirements.
So if anyone meets this issue, above is the solution - phone HL telling them account inactive can they read the declaration blurb out so can be agreed and account activated. Typical HL incompetence. Imagine needing to withdraw urgent funds over a weekend when HL shut and being unable to do so till Monday earliest cos HL can't be as sed to inform via message centre. If any HL client tries to withdraw DCU funds please advise forum what happened.
Started: MatchKing, 8 Apr 2024 11:29
Last post: senseman, 9 Apr 2024 07:49
Corry - hadn't spotted that. when have time will see if can find uk relevant article now know what am looking for
Senseman - same for HL - it looks to me like they are just trying to find a home for it in their menus that maybe doesn't quite fit the actual nature of the payments.
The investopedia article you link to is specific to the USA. The "Return of Capital" mentioned at the bottom of that Barclay's notification again just looks like an unedited hang over from the template they have used and not relevant to the actual payment?
"Investors who held shares on 28 December 2023 are entitled to receive this dividend ..."
You don't hold any "shares" in anything anymore and you are not entitled to a dividend from Prax.
That statement further supports my view that they are using an incorrect automated notification template that has not been properly reviewed.
Oh wow, I can’t believe they issued that! At least they got the Record date and Announcement date correct.
The payment is deferred consideration for the purchase of your Hurricane shares. The clue is in the name – DCU – Deferred Consideration Unit. Prax clearly refer to it as a “Deferred Payment per DCU” on the statements they issue on their website – the word dividend does not appear anywhere on those statements.
They mention an Ex date (whatever that is) of 29/12 which is the same as the Record date – if it was a dividend (it’s not) then the ExDiv date would be the day before the Record date!
“Effective date” of 04/04/24 - I have no idea what that even means? Was that the date they decided to pay you? The payment date was 28/3, as required by the scheme Deed Poll, and some brokers credited accounts that day and cheques received by holders of paper certificates were dated and received that day.
No idea why they are quoting the payment to a zillion decimal places. That would be a very exact value you might get by dividing the total sum to be distributed by the number of DCUs in issue. The official Payment Calculation statement issued by Prax, and every other broker issued notification I know of, only quote the rounded value of £0.00617.
I looks to me like they are maybe trying to warp the payment details into a computer generated notification that is not fit for that purpose and has not been reviewed and edited by anyone who has actually read the scheme documents, e.g. perhaps someone in their legal team (not their corporate actions team).
All in my opinion of course, and I could be wrong, but then I have read the scheme docs in some detail, which anyone else can do as well. As I said before you could ask them for evidence (from Prax/Computershare), but that’s obviously up to you how far down the rabbit hole you want to go…
If you are with HL look under 'transaction history and you will see both DCI payments are described as 'Return OF Capital'
(note, not Return ON Capital'
Google 'investopaedia return of capital. look for 6th or 7th link down for 'Return Of Capital (ROC) - What It Is And How It Works'. It states that ROC is classed as return of funds originally invested and is NOT taxable. Link & excerpt below
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnofcapital.asp
'What Is Return of Capital (ROC)?
Return of capital (ROC) is a payment that an investor receives as a portion of their original investment and that is not considered income or capital gains from the investment. Note that a return of capital reduces an investor's adjusted cost basis. Once the stock's adjusted cost basis has been reduced to zero, any subsequent return will be taxable as a capital gain.
KEY TAKEAWAYS
Return of capital (ROC) is a payment, or return, received from an investment that is not considered a taxable event and is not taxed as income.
Capital is returned, for example, on retirement accounts and permanent life insurance policies; regular investment accounts return gains first.
Investments are composed of a principal that should generate a return; this amount is the cost basis. Return of capital is the return of the principal only, and it is not any gain or any loss as a result of the investment'
Last post: johnniefp, 8 Apr 2024 16:44
I'd be lost without the main posters on this group and LSE kindly allowing it to continue.
Thank you all for your time in keeping us less frequent ex HUR investors up to date.
Started: Mayflower, 5 Apr 2024 16:02
Last post: Mayflower, 5 Apr 2024 16:02
I’ve had payment into HL SIPP but nothing as yet in HSBC share account. I’ve chased with them and waiting for response.
Started: luck-will-change, 5 Apr 2024 12:02
Last post: luck-will-change, 5 Apr 2024 14:43
Thanks for the info. Have chased IG - apparently they are having reconciliation issues…..
Ok its 0.617 and you probably need to chase them i had mine on the 28th
Have these as a result of original holding
Did you have them originally or purchased them separately through say jpjenkins if so there is a cut of point to qualify for payment . someone i am sure will confirm that time date the payment was about .6
I have DCUs with IG, who have yet to post the March payment. Can someone who has received their payment let me know what amount per DCU is being paid out this time?
Started: sharvey44, 2 Apr 2024 15:35
Last post: ronwoking, 3 Apr 2024 13:12
I have DCUs with Barclays,Lloyds and Interactive Investor. fund managers
All the DCUs are now in trading accounts.
The March profit share has been received in all accounts with the exception of Barclays.At the moment they are investigating.
This is not unusual.Barclays al;ways seems to credit cash receipts 1-3 days after the other fund managers.
Of them all II is the most efficient,
Have received payment into my F&S account on HL. The last payment was made into my ISA account. So looks like all providers are aligning themselves in this manner.
Started: Corryvreckan1, 22 Mar 2024 13:16
Last post: Corryvreckan1, 2 Apr 2024 12:43
Part 2 - putting aside the ISA issue for a moment to keep this point simple, so assuming all HUR shares were held in a regular non-ISA / trading account and were then replaced in that account with DCUs.
My questions is in relation to previous post (re: page 81) - what is “the market value of the Class II DCUs at the Effective Date” that is so vital to both sides of the CGT calculation? They state “i.e. the value of the UK Holder’s right to a future DCU Cash Amount” - but that “value” has to be determined by an NPV equivalent of the maximum 6.48p that each DCU gives entitlement to, not just the full (notional) 6.48p over time. And that “value” per DCU categorically has to be the exact same for every single taxpayer issued with DCUs at the effective date of the scheme, 8 June 2023, for HMRC purposes.
I can’t see anywhere in any document where that “market value” has been stated. In the absence of it, the only two figures we have to go on are:
a) the full 6.48p, and if that is the case then nobody is ever going to record a CGT gain on their DCU - all they will have is the initial CGT gain/loss on the original HUR shares (i.e. 0.83p + 6.48p minus the cost of each share held). I don’t consider this value to be valid as a “market value” for CGT; or
b) 1.65p being the very first value traded on Jenkins on 10 July 23. I’m not accepting that a trade totalling just £375 was indicative of “market value” for all DCUs at that time, and you would only ever know what the market value was by trying to actually trade once the Jenkins option became available on 22 June. And no I’m not accepting the later/current 1.77p as relevant either.
There has never been, to my knowledge, any public notification of a market value specific to the effective date which is when the original CGT calculation absolutely has to refer to. This is needed.
I hope I’m just missing something here that someone can point me to.
TIA
Part 1 - I’m just posting this here for ease of reference, I’ll post my point relating to this next to keep it cleaner.
CGT details copied from page 81 of the scheme document that I mentioned before (I have deleted references to Corporation tax that won’t apply to PIs to keep it simple):
“To the extent that a UK Holder receives Class II DCUs in exchange for their Hurricane Shares, that UK Holder will be treated as making a part disposal of Hurricane Shares for a consideration equal to the market value of the Class II DCUs at the Effective Date (i.e. the value of the UK Holder’s right to a future DCU Cash Amount).
This may, depending on the UK Holder’s individual circumstances (including the UK Holder’s base cost in their holding of Hurricane Shares, and the availability of any exemptions, reliefs or allowable losses), give rise to a liability to UK tax on capital gains.
When that UK Holder receives a payment pursuant to their Class II DCUs (or sells their Class II DCUs), this will be treated as a part (or whole) disposal of those Class II DCUs and may depending on the UK Holder’s individual circumstances (including the UK Holder’s base cost in their holding of the Class II DCUs, and the availability of any exemptions, reliefs or allowable losses), give rise to a liability to UK tax on capital gains. If the actual DCU Cash Amount received by the UK Holder pursuant to their Class II DCUs (or the amount for which they sell their Class II DCUs) is less than the market value of the Class II DCUs at the Effective Date which has been brought into account for tax purposes as part of the initial disposal proceeds of the Hurricane Shares, there may be a capital loss for capital gains purposes.”
My view is that if the issue went to Supreme Court for a ruling, judgement would be that DCUs are part payment for sale of shares purchased and remaining within ISA wrapper till date of sale. This would also be the judgements of Solomon, Einstein and Common Sense. The limitations of HMRC categories and definitions would not override this fundamental ISA principle and thus the SC ruling would be that it was incumbent upon HRMC to amend it's limitations to take account of the higher principle. I expect DCU cash to continue to be paid into ISAs and do not expect HMRC to contest this. I believe HMRC would be aware of the higher principle ultimately winning and, like Corry, them to have bigger fish to pick a fight with.
Latest Brent news - current $85-$86, with last few days Goldman raising end summer 24 forecast to $87 and Standard Charter reiterating it's $94 end summer 24 forecast made months ago.
My simple logic is as follows.
Since Capital Loss/Gain within an ISA cannot be taken out/transferred from that wrapper, a DCU (deferred consideration unit), in layman term a postponed/delayed payment - nothing more nothing less, must remain within it.
Just as in the case of a normal/regular acquisition, the end game being the same.
Well almost, in our case it is we liberate the company from you, you pay!
Best, 🐸
I see now, you are in the same position as NMBS for that 20% portion then. I understand the logic of your approach, it ties in with the general view that payment into the ISA should still be correct where the broker does comply.
Doing nothing saves a fight with HMRC as well, for now at least, depending if they go to a VAR review for offside further down the line. But I don't think they will be bothered TBH, they have much bigger fish to chase.
Why not email Prax like I do regularly. I am am merely passing on what they tell me.
Last post: DiveCentre, 1 Apr 2024 22:02
No I am not happy because there is no evidence to support your claim. If there is information in the public domain then you should be able to back up your claim with proof. Or is it just more false information?
There will be a Prax deal by July. Happy now ?
"The 12.5p is not from HUR stand alone only but has some contribution from Prax buying some assets to use the tax losses which they will soon"
How soon Kever.? How soon is soon? I have asked many times but you still refuse to answer. Are you a man or a mouse? Stand up like a man and answer the question.
"when as things stand DCU 12.5p will be reached via us receiving only 17.5% of net oil sale funds, less various costs?"
The 12.5p is not from HUR stand alone only but has some contribution from Prax buying some assets to use the tax losses which they will soon
"NB. So on Jan 1 2027 Prax will cease P6 production, decommission with all it's associated costs, and discard the valuable asset and gateway to riches they were gifted, eh? And also HUR had it stood alone would really have done this, eh? Not on your nelly, sonny boy! I must visit your planet some day"
By 1st Jan 2027 the P6 production will not be commercial. The licence asset then is worthless as no development work will be performed on the licence area by anybody.
"Yet again, I haven't lost serious or even significant money on HUR, I hope I break even and may still do so. "
Absolute rubbish and you know it loony
Prax/HUR P6 standalone max figure (in court docs) by end of P6 economic life was 8p and bits. With the Jan offload and oil in AM tanks we would already have been at 9.1p p.sh.
In Dec 2026 will be simple maths to calculate an accurate end Dec 2026 cash figure had HUR not been sold and see who is correct. Ignore the ever louder screams of the resident nutter as his pronouncements increasingly show themselves to be absurd and his personal attacks increase
You haven't assumed any decommission costs or other costs. You are utterly deluded if you think HUR standalone would give 13.5p/14p
Started: Kever, 1 Apr 2024 18:43
Last post: Kever, 1 Apr 2024 18:43
"extrapolate to dec 2026 cut off point and cash in bank would have been circa 13.5p - 14p p.sh with shs still owning company, compared with current projected dcu end figure of 9.5p a share."
Complete and utter rubbish posted by a bitter HUR shareholder who has lost serious money. There is no way on gods earth that HUR standalone would get to 13.5p/14p by end of 2026. You need to increase your medication Sensemadman
"Watch them move post Dec 2026 when they are own HUR & producing P6 and we are off their backs, have a shedload of our profits banked, and can buy a distressed producing asset cheaply with (our) cash on the hip"
Post 2026 P6 will not be in production commercially so Prax will have to move well before 2026 to use the HUR tax losses to buy producing assets.
Started: Corryvreckan1, 28 Mar 2024 07:45
Last post: machin, 30 Mar 2024 12:49
Hello NMBS,
It is very likely that IWeb will repeat what they said to their clients via a Corporate Action Notification on 23 June 2023, namely (amongst other things): -
“As the New DCU's are not listed on any Recognised Exchange as defined by HMRC for ISA qualifying purposes. Your New DCU's will not be eligible to be held in an ISA. Should you have held your Hurricane shares within an ISA, we will shortly transfer your New DCU's to your Share Dealing Account. If you do not have a Share Dealing Account, we will arrange to open one for you.
Each New DCU may entitle holders to an additional payment of up to 6.48 pence. Please note, however, that there can be no certainty that such distributions will be made.”
Best, 🐸
Only just got around to checking this morning. 0.617p paid into my trading account and not my ISA (IWeb). Previous DCU payment last September was the same. So they are at least being consistent.
I’m going to speak to them next week to argue that, in my opinion, these payments should have been paid into my ISA. I will try and have a proper read of the scheme document Corryvreckan1 as well.
Petethestreet - I think the payments should still be part of your CGT thinking, not income tax, regardless of which account they are paid into. See Part VIII, page 81 of the original scheme document (not the Deed Poll) for more details on how it was analysed there.
I looked at that earlier and it has also thrown out a curious reading of the tax treatment of the DCU payments where the original shares were held in an ISA. It may be why some of the brokers are now getting a bit twitchy. There is a separate thread running from a few days ago on tax treatment and anyone contributing to that thread may also now wish to have a read over page 81. The bi-annual payments are described in there as being a part disposal of the DCUs for CGT purposes, i.e. no longer a part disposal of the original Hurricane shares, and as the DCUs themselves can't be held within an ISA...taxable outside may yet prove to be correct...
I don't have the answer, just flagging it for consideration. To repeat as I have always said - this, and the previous threads, are not tax advice, just individual views from various posters and different brokers on how they are approaching the payments received. The scheme document is also heavily loaded with disclaimers from the beginning, but particularly on page 79, so DYOR applies as per.
Peter - ??? - but still nothing in Hargreaves accounts. so are you just assuming based on what others report their brokers are doing?
Same here. HL told me that was a capital repayment hence ISA. These are now DCU income payments paid into trading acccount and income taxable.
We have had 6.02p , 0.309p and 0.617p = 6.946p so far.
So only another 5.5p to get to te full 12.5p
Started: Kever, 29 Mar 2024 18:22
Last post: youzlez, 29 Mar 2024 20:58
Not sure who the moan moan moan culprit is here. Perhaps more than one K? Give it a rest.
The Prax deal was not "amoral" at all. It was a good deal for many. You only keep moaning about the bad deal as you lost on your shares. Assuming we get 12.5p isn't it time you told us all how much you are set to lose ? It must be a fair wedge as you keep moaning.
Had you have bought shed loads like me at 6p you would be delighted with the deal but you didn't