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LMFA currently going crackers in the pre market up 117%. Makes CRV investment over there a bit more palatable.
Return to go
The holders of shares in Craven Industrial Holdings will not be significantly hindered in this regard and will receive regular communication outlining opportunities to sell their shares or increase their holding. It is anticipated that this will be best managed via monthly share auctions whereby the highest priced buyer is matched with the equivalent price seller whose shares have been listed for the longest time. So, sellers who have been waiting the longest and are willing to accept the buyer's offer are matched first.
Or ring your broker?
Okey so they show, but how do you trade them? Anyone heard anything about that?
The new shares are showing in my account. He has finally managed to keep to a timeframe...
Showing zero value. I expect that to change in due course!
I don't know if this helps but when I was palmed off with theses hares in AIMI, as it was originally styled, by Andrew Meikle in December 2009 as compensation for a sizeable unpaid consultancy invoice I was told that Desmond Holdings were behind the company and Desmond himself actively involved from his Hong Kong base.
I must admit I was most naive in accepting these shares but the DD I did at the time convinced me this was true and maybe they weren't such a 'pig in a poke'...........
Hi
Has anybody any idea of the mechanics of the trading arrangements for CIH? If there are buyers and/or sellers how is that fact imparted to shareholders or other potential investors? I seem to remember trading is intended to be available on a regular basis. So far I have no idea of the true value of the assets in CIH other than by a very unsophisticated way using the back of a fag packet or Abacus. It would be very useful to believe that the procedure will be done in an open and transparent way. Past experience over the last 12 years suggests it won't be. I am led to assume that everything will be handled purely in the director(s) and large shareholder's best interests.
I could be a buyer, I could be a seller but at what price I haven't a clue. Any information on these matters would be very helpful. I really feel once again I have been taken for a mug! Come on Mr Pajak, try looking after the small band of shareholders who against all sound judgement have stood by you all these years. We really could do with some reward for our support! Go on surprise us.
Welcome back Happy!
Years ago there was a poster on here called " wealth manager " if my memory serves me right. Always very informed posts. Anyway...This poster used to go into everything, left no stone unturned. He after a while produced evidence that the actual money behind Desmond investments was in fact Richard Desmond.
M Pajak was asked at an AGM whether there was any truth in this? he declined to answer which you can take whichever way you wish.
No idea if this is true or not, but as i recall the evidence produced was compelling.
Morning All
I've not posted for a long while, but I too agree that a NED would be excellent, there is also a need for a functioning board of directors. I do believe that there must be "influencers" in the background but believe we will never find out who they are or why there is a lack of transparency. Mark Pajak would not have the contacts or the credibility to broker some of the large investments at huge premiums and source the deals in such a broad geographical spread without someone pulling the strings (you don't go from a mid level exec in a UK contstruction company to a global networker and investment manager). Some names were floated many years ago but I can not remember who, or have the time/inclination to try and dig through the message boards to find them because none of that will give us any proof. My intuition tells me that they must be quite influential and probably see Craven in whatever form (listed or private) as a vehicle to mop up opportunities that their "mainstream" investment activities do not allow them to possibly due to size or their own investment policy/regulation.
I do believe splitting out the web assets is a good move and think the valuation was high, but I am not party to details of the deal. Based on my experience and involvement of aim listed companies, the NOMADS do not just roll over and allow stupid to happen, they will have been shown "something" that substantiates the value no matter how tenuous. We have to hope the business plan is executed to be able to see that value. It could be ideal to have self promoting, excentric Scandavians pumping information to the markets leading to a huge value bubble - is that not what happens on AIM and the tech sector the most prolific at it? ;-)
As PIs our issues are surely related to liquidity now, not that there was much previously without a brilliant broker. My hope is that the model of growing value through issue of equity at a premium to value continues and that the asset value of CIH grows considerably with investee companies eventually providing cashflow through dividend or sale of assets.
Just pleased that there is still a listing that enables us to have a discussion board, if the entire company had gone private we would not even have that. GLA, I will be consigning my investment to the "it may be worth something to my grand children in 20 years time drawer".
Hi CJ
What you may not have considered is that we are dealing with a complete narcissist in my opinion. He is a man who has to have complete control and believes he can do no wrong. Even when the record of the past few years is at best flawed, and at worst clueless.
Burrows ran away, Winters left without a word and sold his shares shortly afterwards, Ms Eavis was told to go, and with her payoff promptly sold her shares. Look who we have to replace them....What exactly do they do? My guess is nothing, just there for decoration. It is all about one man and one man only...
So the chance of him considering your idea CJ is somewhere between zero and no chance. He probably has plenty of advisors if he is to be believed....in UK and Scandinavia. I do wonder what our Nomad made of this deal when it was put to them. Lets remember they are paid! Beggars belief how any sane person could see that deal as good for shareholders. You could of course always mention your idea to M Pajak. One person who would definitely have been up for it would have been Sir David Jones, but he has sadly passed away of course.
I would bet my b*****ks to a barn dance there is more to it than has been put into the public domain. I would also bet it favours Pajak more than any of his shareholders.
Thanks for the kind words about my health mate.
Hi Tully, Grawostac and others,
Yes, Mark Pajak would have to agree, of course. But I believe it's in the interests of the two companies and therefore his.
As myself and Tully have commented before, it seems some of the problems at CRV arise from one man having to do too much. Tully has made the excellent point that this is compounded by the far flung geography of the assets Craven Industrial holds.
I also think it would really help the principal director to have an independent voice giving a different perspective and asking difficult questions about developments.
Let's take the Scandinavian websites. Dividing the company into two is actually a surprising and potentially brilliant move. I can really appreciate the strategic imagination behind that. But that vision is going to be undermined, if CRV proves to have paid too much for the web businesses. This is where a non-exec would come in useful: just to say to the board, the price you are going to pay is too high upfront. Structure the deal differently: pay one third now and the rest depends on hitting milestones of performance. Then if the milestones are fulfilled, the deal is proven. If they are not, there's less downside.
PS Yes, I remember you are in poor health, Tully. All the best with that. I know from personal experience from when I was much younger how trying it is to deal with chronic health problems.
I would wholeheartedly agree with your suggestion and would give my smallish share holding in backing too.
I believe the candidate would also need excellent man management skills as well as a forensic mind!
Hi CJ
Last thing in the world I want is to dampen your enthusiasm, but wouldn't that require the cooperation of M Pajak? I would feel the chances of him giving the go ahead for something like that wouldn't be high.
Unfortunately my health is fragile at best, so I wouldn't be able to even consider such a project. However...if someone was to wish to contact M Pajak and suggest such a thing, I would be happy to put my shares in and I know others who have decent holdings ( I think ) who would maybe give their backing too.
What we need is for CIH to just buy our shares and then we can move on, because I can't be the only one who is sick to the back teeth of all this.
Good luck mate.
Hi Tully and others,
There are around a dozen regular or irregular posters on this board.
Is there anyone amongst us who'd be prepared to put themselves forward as a non-exec representing minority shareholders?
It would help, if you also had some ability to contribute in other ways to the two businesses. (But you don't need huge amounts of business experience, per se. Much learning happens on the job.)
I believe it would be of huge benefit to the two companies and to the minority shareholders to have such a non-exec on board.
Having a company listed on an exchange implies restriction on what it can do: these have hampered developments at CRV. But it also imposes disciplines of accountability and transparency, which can improve company performance. I believe an independent non-exec can keep an eye on this sort of issue as well as providing a wider perspective.
If I didn't live in Spain, I'd offer myself, but there are plenty of others on here who could do the job.
(PS Hi Tully, CIH is still a public company, but it's non-listed as you know.)
Hi CJ
It is just bewildering...
I have often said on this board how is it possible for one man to control assets on several continents? It just isn't possible.
He talks the talk of course, but is sadly lacking in the ability to run a public company effectively. It's probably the reason he has run for it and took all the decent assets private.
Hi Tully,
Yes, it is rather disturbing.
The registrars say they are unaware of the existence of Craven Industrial Holdings. They were delighted to be informed. I read over the Company RNS to them.
I'm writing a follow up e-mail to Link Asset management and to my two brokers.
I can't help thinking that a lot of the issues that arise with CRV stem from the fact that there is one key actor who tries to do far too much.
I also can't help thinking that CRV Cap and CRV Industrial would benefit greatly from a genuinely independent non-exec to give a wider perspective.
The general strategy of the split makes sense. What doesn't for me is the exaggerated price paid for the web sites. This is where a good non-exec could have performed a valuable service to all, including the existing board.
Let's hope the issue with Craven industrial is a temporary hitch.....
Hi CJ
I'm genuinely shocked that the registrars haven't been informed. Is there no end to the incompetence of this man? Thanks for sharing.
Regards
Hi Tully,
Thanks for your message; never a dull moment with CRV.
Ah, 10 days…
I've just contacted the company registrars and they tell me that they have not been informed by the Company of the Company split, which should be surprising…. They are looking into it for me and will get back to me mid/late next week.
All best
CJohn
As usual with Pajak, clarity isn't one of his noted tendencies CJ. They say 10 working days for completion from the 29th May, so sometime in October perhaps? No idea if they will send them paper form or just appear in your account.
Maybe they will clear the decks then with a new CEO ( first quarter 2020 ) or the DLC acquisition as well ( September 2019...)
I apologies for the sarcasm, i can't help it.
I held my shares in pre-split CRV at Eqi (Selftrade) and Hargreaves Lansdown.
Now at both brokers, Craven Capital is on screen, but Craven Industrial Holdings have disappeared. no reference to them anywhere. This has not been my experience on previous occasions that companies have de-listed.
I'm going to contact brokers and CRV registrar.
Does anyone have any ideas in the meantime?
Thanks CJohn
All utter drivel... Who in their right mind would advise a public company to invest in this lot of copy cats, especially given the valuations.
The respective acquisitions have been negotiated with the support of advisors in the UK and Sweden with whom the Company is developing a strategy to build a broad based ecommerce and online media business.
As disclosed above, the businesses of the investees are all presently loss-making although their cost bases are low and there is minimal committed future expenditure, meaning that the extent and timing of the Company's and the existing shareholders' further investment in the businesses are highly controllable. Whilst the Company accepts that the market's valuation metrics for such businesses are different to the metrics applied to traditional enterprises, it is nevertheless the intent of Craven House and the incumbent managements of the investee companies to work together for these businesses to become financially self-sustaining and generating surpluses within the short- to medium-term, and to crystallise additional capital value for shareholders through strategic, third-party partnerships.
Very hard to see where CRV shares will end up....Market, Mr Gylenhammer, and no doubt others have taken the view that these investments do not in any way have the valuation that so called " advisors " and M Pajak have placed on them. Unless something out of the ordinary appears in the form of news for these 5 companies i can see nothing but heartache for shareholders.
It's all very confusing as to how these valuations have been arrived at. It would seem that other investors are of the same opinion.
It's all with Craven Industries now. If M Pajak has one ounce of decency in him he will put an offer to small shareholders to purchase their shares.
Question is...What price is a fair price? He has us all by the B*****ks and he must know this. If i could get out losing 25% i would class that as a result and a lesson learnt.
You can currently sell 2 whole shares online at total of £1.42 before commission.......
Yes, $1 a share values the company at $3.9m, just under half what CRV paid for its almost 30% stake in the web sites.
It values the web sites at around $13m.
Still at pretty steep valuation in my view.
So...It was Mr Gylenhammer who sold those shares on Monday. He obviously thought it was the right decision and has taken a view on the true valuations of the 5 companies. He was happy to take $1 a share which seems about right? He still of course retains significant holdings in Craven Industries as do other holders.
Hard to be positive currently BUT
The Omega website had stock of $3,500,000 back in March
No way of knowing if that was paid for and if its sold some or all of it, but at least its something.....