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I get that yes, but to be effective it will need to sit against the electrode to increase coverage and minimise air gaps?
I wonder what happened to dessert seems to have disappeared hmm
Heath, the new product is a membrane that sites between the anode and cathode. It replaces the electrolyte.
Thanks for the replies - my concerns re electrodes is that we may need to go through more longevity testing if they are different but there has been no mention of the S model electrodes so perhaps we assume they are the same. Certainly the sizes are different but there would need to be complete contact between the electrode and membrane for it to be the most efficient replacement for the coverage liquid electrolyte so assume the coating (originally black goo) is applied in a very uniform layer. All very interesting stuff and very much not my field of expertise!
I agree Richlist. If AFC can get 20% of the Nafion market which seems very reasonable, even conservative, if it is better, then that is £200m a year in sales alone. That must be worth north of 50p per share before you even start to think about fuel cells and other revenue streams.
This has sure given the brian boxes some food for thought!
Last year we seen some methodology patents denora had submited around using afc tech so if the new membrane is disuptive tech, can it be patented and if so, could it be a dual patent or who would be the owner?
When adam spoke about denora and electrolysis you could be forgiven for thinking that we might be generating revenue from there sooner than we think?
So does the alkaline electrolysis take that one step further and split the OH- ion, producing oxygen as well?
Richlist, when water is ionised it forms H+ and OH-
Sorry, I gave an incomplete quote. They say the testing would be across the broad range of uses of the membrane. If there are problems it might relate to some of them.
I don’t think anyone said your 18:28 post was inappropriate Klunk, always best not too get too excited.
I quite agree ....and I am sure it is this new technology that has got DeNora so excited ....lets hope the new website clears up a few if's and but's ....
They say they have been working on it for two years. If they need to test for 18 months to find out how long it lasts we can only hope they have already started.
A membrane like this seems to have many potential uses, not only fuel cells/electrolysis, but in the chlor alkali industry and medical monitoring equipment as well as probably lots of other things. Presumably it would be up to the medical equipment manufacturer to licence it and use it for their product. They would have a range of thicknesses to choose what best suits them.
It also states the membrane will come in 3 thicknesses....but has the same technology ...."The AlkaMemTM membrane will come in three thicknesses reflecting the needs of different applications, but shall all be based on the same technology and manufacturing process "
I tried looking at what Nafion is. From what I can understand (!) it seems to be a membrane which allows anions (so H+) to pass through, but not cations (so O-).
This might mean that the new membrane is much better at transporting a steady flow of H+ and O- to the electrodes than the fluid electrolyte. From previous videos of electrolyte/gas flow to the electrodes, it all improved a lot when they added new flow holes, but there were still areas of electrode without good flow. I may be very wrong, but maybe that is what achieves 5X more power density than the liquid. I am assuming they are the same electrodes, but again that could be wrong. If they had a much better set of electrodes, why not use them in the (L) form after all.
About the two types being complementary as the liquid cell can act as a scrubber for ammonia contaminant, it sounds like if your hydrogen is particulary poor you are better off with the liquid type. Not that the two types would be used together to scrub. Again I may be wrong.
All this is amazing news. I have not posted today as I have been speechless with excitement at the massive potential of all this. It sounds as if the Nafion type membrane has many applications and is difficult and expensive to make. As far as I remember from the last AGM, our membrane was said to be something like a quarter the price. If this is a billion dollar a year market then the membrane alone could be a company maker getting the sp to £1. Once this is all working and out to market any potential take over price for AFC must have just jumped!
Indeed.....which is why my post at 18:28 was quite appropriate.
It states on today’s RNS that one of the tasks for 2020 is demonstrating the stability of the membrane.
If the 5x power density is solely from a new chemical compound then I guess new longevity test are inevitable....
So what makes the power density five times greater?
The actual physical sizes of the electrodes are clearly different ....but the chemical composition will have to be the same ....small or large ...or we test all over again.
Yes, but I thought Heath was asking if the L electrodes could be used in an S system? Would seem unlikely surely?
That answers that one Mitch. The other pollutant would be residual amounts of ammonia.
Heath23 ...Your original question about the compatibility of the electrodes between L and S systems ?....my understanding is the electrodes on test with DeNora are to test the chemical composition for performance and longevity....the electrodes will then be scaled up to suit the application needed......of course I do stand to be corrected.
https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/ammonia-cracking-to-high-purity-hydrogen-for-pem-fuel-cells-in-denmark/
Looks like by products are N2 or some H20 as I assume any unpaired Hydrogen is more reactive than nitrogen.
I have been wondering about NOx emissions from cracked ammonia. I was pleased to hear Bond say they would not be an issue today.
To get rid of contaminants like NOx perhaps that might be air pollutants, from heating ammonia in a cracker. May be wrong.
I have to say I don’t get that! If both L and S can accept lower grade hydrogen what is the purpose of scrubbing lower grade H2? Perhaps they are talking lower than 3 9s?