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In the US, people talk about their net worth, while in the UK people talk about their income. This seems to be reflected in the capital growth vs dividend culture of companies mentioned upthread.
BODS poxy predicative nonsense
H
Any news from your bids re ARV ?? What’s the whispers ?
Cheers
Fiercey
Hi bellers.
Definitely. The shares are coming from somewhere. Either sells or warrants. Surely the supply must be about exhausted
@Jerry
"One other point; do you think that GGP can use the money better than you can? I do and they have done so far."
That is the key question. Can the company use the money to increase the value of your shares by more than the value of the dividend?
If they use the money to drill holes, will that increase the value of the shares? Only if they find another economical-to-mine resource. Otherwise, divs would be better. If they use it to buy producing assets, will that be better than divs? It depends on the cost and the proceeds.
Yes, generally tax is more favourable for cap gains than for divs, more so than it used to be. Who knows what they'll do to us going forward, though.
Hi Jerry. There are so many "experts in the PM space it is almost impossible to follow them all and i know nothing of this Chris Marcus. All i know is that gold and silver will do what they have always done and preserve, and sometimes, increase your wealth. ATB Speedy
Why is Chris Marcus such a joker (in his eyes. I find him very annoying)? This is serious stuff and he appears to be trying to grab defeat from the jaws of victory.
Speedy, do you know him at all? Is this normal behaviour for him?
Well it has breached 1860, let's see where we go from here.
GLA
Here merc
CFTC responds to evidence submitted
https://youtu.be/CzTx-sEHljg
keep your dividends , bring on the 50p/£1 so I can get out of this **** show asap
Gold will be $2000 by the time Basel III comes around.
GGP a gift at 20p
Definitely the most plausible answer Bellers, bought another 100k+ @ 20.7 today as well.
GLA
sorry, 3 months ago we've been at this price (not dropping)
somehow i lost 2 months of my life lmao!
Bellers the illusion that its "drifting back" is just that, an illusion, truth is we were at this price over a month ago, on 16th Feb. but the tactic seems to be one/two day rise followed by a week or more of small red days, to give the illusion we are falling, when actually we are consolidating, imo before a substantial rise.
games games games.
Bellers lth’s slicing off the top for mtr maybe ha ha
Tigger, certainly no fisticuffs from me!
I think in your scenario the company would either be awash with cash and so a special divi would be in order, or with all those discoveries it would need a pile of cash to develop them, so a rights issue would be more likely than a divi.
Looking forward to Wednesday week.
Gold reaching out for $1860. Hoping it hits it soon.
Red SP won't last too long
Does anyone think there’s someone selling considerable amounts of shares off to drag this down? Golds up, good company, good prospects, rapid advancement but yet it continues very slowly to drift back. I thought I had done well to buy today at 20.60 . Just goes to show.
Jerry , most respectfully, and as a humble investor who has always admired your advice, I donot want any fisticuffs when we meet next week.
But when, at the end of the year when Scally is inferred 4 times larger than Have , and we sell off Tasmania, and Panorama exhibits multi millions of tons of cobalt , and Rio storm in with a few £££ billion buyouts of some of our assets,......... I will be happy to take a special divi of say 10p or 15p a share, and lett GGP march on with their next half dozen prospects.
Tig
Bunky/Speedy, re divis I totally agree with you and have commented on this fallacy so many times before. If you want a divi just take the 'natural' divi by selling some shares. And Mattyboy, are you missing something, yes you are. On a before tax basis (or no tax basis) a natural divi is the same as the a corporate divi. After tax basis it depends on your tax position....
One other point; do you think that GGP can use the money better than you can? I do and they have done so far.
@WelshFalcon - I was right about CGT being preferable to Divi tax though, wasn't I?
@Matty - Divis vs gains is (almost) purely down to whether you want profits paid out to you, or reinvested to increase the value of your stock. The flip side would be that if they do start paying a divi, I'd just use it to buy more stock... because I'm a growth investor, not an income investor. I don't want the money paid out. I'm still young-ish and earning a wage, so more income isn't of interest to me. However if they do pay a divi, I'd have to pay 38.1% divi tax (or 19% Corporation Tax as I also hold a lump of GGP via a Ltd company) on that before reinvesting it straight back into more GGP stock. So for every £100 of divi, I'm only going to get £62 of new stock. So I'd rather they didn't pay out the divi at all, kept that £100 in the company, and I'd (theoretically) see that £100 going into the SP instead, which is gross of tax. I then get rolled up growth, which leads to much higher overall growth. It's just a personal preference.
@Tig - I wasn't criticising divis per se. More that (as I feel is actually being evidenced in this thread) we have a cultural thing for dividends. There's something about getting paid a bit of cash every 6 months that makes us feel like we're winning. Even though it is just our own money being paid to us. I see it at work all the time. Typically with the older generations. They pass away leaving behind a box of utility company (and similar) share certificates because it "paid a good dividend". What they failed to ever look at was the miserable overall return they got for the last 40 years because they obsessed about divis. Where growth investors have made multiple higher returns, in what is now also now a significantly more preferential tax environment for gains. The same people that jump and down when they get £50 "for free" from their premium bonds, even though they don't realise that they've held an asset for 10 years with an annual return of about 1%. Meanwhile the MSCI world index is up 10% per year over the same period. That's all I was saying. I'm not... ante dividends (see what I did there). ps. As for the nations pension funds paying out. That's a perfect example of what I find so depressing about the FTSE. That they are all basically just owned by pension/investment funds, and rather than our 100 biggest companies actually growing and expanding each year to acquire, grow and develop on the global stage, they have a bunch of pension trustees march into the board room each year and bleed them dry for a divi, in exchange for not dumping their stock, to save their own skins. It's just my personal opinion on a conversation about dividends :)
I used to work for the UK partner of a US company that kept to the no divi mantra. They eventually went bust, I made a fair amount of cash as an expert witness as the tribunals/court cases went through.
When they were small, growing at their target 20% year on year was possible. Employee and director share options did very well. The problem came as they grew larger. Past director share incentives were likely to be unmatched without this level of growth, so they fixated on shorter and shorter term 'fixes' to show their much touted 20% growth.
They ended up understaffed (due to desperate measures to 'contain' costs), were unable to pay the going rate for good people with consequent drop offs in performance. Things got missed and a handful of directors did a few dodgy deals with finance and cashflows. Massive implosion, court cases, the company is no longer.
When starting out and in early years, yes - reinvesting profits can be good. But you get to a point where you don't need/shouldn't invest more in growth (baby steps needed for a long life - running too fast will cause falls). This is when you start to pay dividends and keep your growth controllable. Funding can come, very often, much cheaper with loan notes etc. which is of greater benefit to shareholders.
A well planned and well funded growth is a better long term plan than going for broke without giving divis.
@ Bunky1981
Yes, but surely if you sell, then those shares are then gone and any future increase in sp will be lost.
If you get a divi, then okay the value of the shares at that point may be less but at least you still own the same number of shares (that you would have sold in the first scenario) so any future increase in value (for whatever reason - say 'left field' suprise positive news or a takeover offer) wouldn't be lost? (Unless I'm missing something?!)
Hi Chrisatbirdies, without sounding too personal...are you by any chance a Canaries fan?
Do stop criticising divis. They serve a whole range of purposes, keep the nations pension funds paying out ( if you are lucky ) , JUST MAKE SURE YOUR INVESTMENTS ARE isa'D, and what is wrong with getting good lumps of cash back. Re-invest it, buy the wife a new dress, have a good holiday, stick it in your kids isa,
Relax ...patience.
Tig