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Whispering tends to over-complicate, whether by constitution or design i am unsure.
there seems to be agreement between most enthusiasts and most sceptics that there is no independently verifiable public domain info to show that cloudtag has developed and sold tech / IP for quarter of a billion plus.
therefore, most of the argument hinges around the degree to which cloudtag’s umpteen updates are credible or not, with both enthusiasts and sceptics tending to accept that the updates are probably driven by amit himself (i.e. rather than an impersonator).
Well done Helx, with you all the way.
Think the Scottish bore has backed down now🤣
Anyone think Spikey is Antha, Antha is Spikey.
Seems like all the bad asses are out today
"The evidence for greatly outweighs the evidence against"... really?
The SOLE "evidence for" comprises multiple repeated assurances from the same single individual. Yep, just one individual - so it is merely and purely a case of "because Amit said so". There is literally no other independently verifiable evidence.
Okay, so all one can do is then gauge the plausibility, credibility and veracity of that individual - and to do that, the only rational starting point is to look at said individual's track record of issuing accurate and/or truthful statements.
As has been long picked over, literally everything ABH has ever said relating to Cloudtag that could be disproved has been disproved. Even if one limits oneself and only looks at at the website announcements made over the last 2 1/2 years (and there have been 39 of those), every single one of those that has mentioned something that either is or becomes easily checkable - such as a deadline date or the name of a bank - has turned out to be categorically and provably false.
In fact the naming of the bank where the $50 million licence funds were deposited and its subsequent rapid deletion from the 22/03/24 update is probably the most recent large red flag. Here just as a reminder is how that very recent particular website update originally started:
"22 Mar 2024 — The licensing fees have been deposited with CIBC Bank, located in Chicago, Illinois...."
So the single individual issuing assurances about Cloudtag has a literally undeviating track record of putting out information and promises that so far have all turned out to be false. I would say that is is therefore pretty easy to gauge this source's plausibility, credibility and veracity.
"The evidence for greatly outweighs the evidence against"... not in this reality, I'm afraid.
Thank you Helx, Ive just caught up with your ‘evidence’.
It is appreciated.
Im’ still though extremely sceptical on Amit’s abilities, as per the catalogue of improprieties that i then ‘evidenced’.
Fingers crossed that your faith “payout to arrive very shortly” then gets rewarded.
Spikey raised a good point earlier regarding whether Amit had ever made money for retail pis. My understanding is he has never been involved in a publicly listed company with traded shares.
Obviously Cloudtag is now private, but that is purely as a result of the original company being thrown off the Aim. With his financing background and this track record of unbroken brilliance and personal wealth of millions it begs the question why he went down the Aim listing route to raise a fraction of the amount he walked away with from the J&J deal in the 1990s. We know he made some tidy millions flipping an apartment in NYC to keep it working.
I read a brilliant post on LSE some years back, can’t remember the author, along the lines of the best ideas and best connected individuals wouldn’t go near an Aim listing as there are many routes to raising finance for winning ideas. The notion of cutting a bunch of Aim chancers (I include myself in that) into a virtually certain winner doesn’t really stack up.
Of course there are the odd winners with Aim companies that do make large returns but the majority seem to be lifestyle setups with paying CEO salaries the main objective.
Tracy, could you make your posts shorter as boredom sets in about half way through.
Spike you were questioning …
“i think if you are trying to make an argument about someone’s business credibility, then i think it does matter what, if anything, they’ve done in the last twenty five years. “
You were questioning Amit’s credibility were you not…? nor you, me, or the man on the moon know exactly what Amit may have been involved with over the past twenty five years…
Folk invested in Cloudtag for various reasons, some perhaps for just a trade, some as a longer term investment, then became locked in. If you’re trying to suggest Amit lacks business acumen in any way then you’re perhaps not giving credit where it’s due, of course it’s only imv. (His comms perhaps need a tad more attention)
“what’s that got to do with whether or not *cloudtag* is a genuinely very valuable commercial entity?
cloudtag was not set up as an investment trust designed to profit by taking stakes in shlomo’s businesses. and cloudtag is *not* one of shlomo’s companies.”
No one other than you has suggested Cloudtag was set up as an investment trust have they?
You’re not a muppet Spkie, so please let’s not take text out of context.
16:03, whispering, i was asking you what you think the relevance is, since you brought it up.
Sorry for the double post… typical of adverts jumping all over the screen whilst trying to key in on one’s phone :(
HITS
“The only evidence to support a positive outcome can be boiled down very simply to "Because Amit said so"... and the plausibility of this is not supportable by any inductive reasoning. Therefore, back to David Icke and the Windsor multi-dimensional lizards, I'm afraid.”
Regardless of whether one chooses an illuminati conspiracy theorist to make a point, or inductive reasoning to dispel any reasoning…
My view is, we are at the end of the line HITS… simply “because Amit said so” within the last two updates… that agents are almost ready to notify shareholders then brokers. No one would actually be here discussing if we didn’t think this could be a plausible outcome… would we now? (It’s why many invested in the first instance)
We’d write it off and move on surely?
HITS
“The only evidence to support a positive outcome can be boiled down very simply to "Because Amit said so"... and the plausibility of this is not supportable by any inductive reasoning. Therefore, back to David Icke and the Windsor multi-dimensional lizards, I'm afraid.”
Regardless of whether one chooses an illuminati conspiracy theorist to make a point, or inductive reasoning to dispel any reasoning…
My view is, we are at the end of the line HITS… simply “because Amit said so” within the last two updates… that agents are almost ready to notify shareholders then brokers. No one would actually be here discussing if we didn’t think this could be a plausible outcome… would we now? (It’s why many invested in the first instance)
We’d write it off and move on surely?
“Whispering, what’s that got to do with whether or not *cloudtag* is a genuinely very valuable commercial entity?”
You can’t prove it’s not Spike… you’ve no evidence
Or have you? Do tell…
Whispering, what’s that got to do with whether or not *cloudtag* is a genuinely very valuable commercial entity?
cloudtag was not set up as an investment trust designed to profit by taking stakes in shlomo’s businesses. and cloudtag is *not* one of shlomo’s companies.
Spike
“Helx, you’re entitled to your own opinion of course. if you think that time doesn’t matter, that’s up to you …. but me, i think if you are trying to make an argument about someone’s business credibility, then i think it does matter what, if anything, they’ve done in the last twenty five years. “
Sticking with probability also hypothetically speaking… because it’s what we’re all doing to some extent…
If I had a brother like Shlomo, and invested in all of his companies I could be loaded by now… (plus co founder of biosense…) all seems like pretty good business acumen to me… ?
Just saying :)
Helx, you’re entitled to your own opinion of course. if you think that time doesn’t matter, that’s up to you …. but me, i think if you are trying to make an argument about someone’s business credibility, then i think it does matter what, if anything, they’ve done in the last twenty five years.
i have never said anything about amit not being intelligent. but that’s a different issue from whether he has ever developed a company on his own and sold it for big bucks … so far as i can see, he made money a long, long time ago riding on the coattails of others.
the comms have not simply been “poor”, they have been self-contradictory and inconsistent. if i was a juror or judge in a trial or tribunal situation, i would not trust someone who gave that kind of evidence or testimony.
Yeah good one, that's how you win all the best debates. maybe try arguing your point a little harder :D
"Again, the evidence for greatly outweighs the evidence against." 🤣🤣🤣
1) why does time matter? if he's done it on multiple occasions previously then surely the number of years between each is irrelevant?
2) you assert amit didn't do anything with respect to biosesnse and yet ended up with £88m - more money than his brother who was apparently 'the brainchild'? lacking intelligence? hardly, definitely not lacking any shrewdness.
3) well all you have to do to answer that is look up the shareholder split for biosense / others. please don't make me do all the hard work for you.
4) the only point i'll give you credit for - the comms side of the sale news has been very poor - clearly not amit's strong-suit. But as he has re-qualified (+ apologized) - the sale is happening first payout to arrive very shortly.
Again, the evidence for greatly outweighs the evidence against.
Spikey, you can add...
5) has there ever been any verifiable evidence that Amit has done a deal worth $275 million with an unknown company for Cloudtags worthless assets?
1) how long has it been since amit managed to achieve a big payout by selling a company? - it looks to me like it’s been a pretty long, long time since anything like that happened.
2) has there been any evidence of amit achieving a big payout by selling a company *that he developed himself*, i.e. rather than just piggy-backing off someone else’s ideas and commercial nous?
3) has there ever been any evidence that amit achieved a big payout for other people (particularly retail pis) invested in his previous companies, rather than payouts for himself?
4) in gauging the probative value to be given to amit’s multiple updates, it would be reasonable imv to take into account not just amit’s personal credibility as a businessman, but also the internal consistency and coherence of the updates themselves — my own reading is that the updates are often self-contradictory, vague, incoherent and inconsistent.
You can belittle him all you like but he's telling us again that's sold another company, this time for $275m+ - payment to follow in due course. If you hold ctag shares you're going to get a payout - just need to continue to be patient - if you don't hold any, then why on earth are you still posturing here?
Antha - and yet... 'Ben-Haim, who holds 19% of the shares in Biosense, will receive shares worth some $75 million. His brother, Adv. Amit Ben-Haim, who was the first investor in the company, holds 22% of the shares, and will receive Johnson & Johnson shares worth some $88 million.'
lucky? unintelligent? very rich?
There are also news articles on it - just need to search hard enough to find 'evidence' of past performance.
Just for you doug - because you're very special:
https:// uk.marketscreener.com/insider/AMIT-BEN-HAIM-A1S2JB/
Shlomo was the brains Amit was the finance, Amit would probably be stacking shelves now if it wasn't for his genius brother, simples.