Charles Jillings, CEO of Utilico, energized by strong economic momentum across Latin America. Watch the video here.
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European stocks follow Asian markets higher after cheering China data:
https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1675846275256709121
It’s not fantasy value though is it. It’s REAL value. Hence why he’s trying to get in back duh.
Well, I am delighted to inform you that I must be considered belligerent. Don't get me wrong, I like your argument and for that I applaud you, but, as you have rather chosen to ignore facts that INVESTORS rely on and which SPECULATORS cannot accept. The most important of which is revenue either which is already existing or once developed will result.
Revenue is, of course, different from profit.
Anyway, since the ONLY element in any of the joke "currencies" that are traded is blockchain, then that element has a value. From the 4,000 or so joke companies that have caught the imagination of speculators, the "value" of Bitcoin is the equivalent to betting - which fly will land on which turd, which bead of rain will slide down a pane of glass etc - completely meaningless and no intrinsic value whatsoever, except for academic argument.
Perhaps you might like to support the bloke that has narrowed down a rubbish dump in South Wales for a hard drive that holds a wallet containing fantasy value either with a spade or real money with challenges to legal decisions not to permit access to a rubbish tip?
Alas_Smith
At what point would you deem Bitcoin to be a a safe store of value if it were to continue its rise in value over time? 5 more years? 7 more years? 10 more?
If you answer 'Never' then that's just belligerence on your part.
At some point, those who in 1995, pontificated that “the internet’s impact on the world economy would be no greater than the fax machine” had to concede they were wrong eventually.
Another fact for you – Anyone & everyone who has held Bitcoin for a period of 4 years or more is up on their investment (most substantially so). I'd say that qualifies as a good store of value but some may need more time to judge.
Enjoy the port!
Bouncy does have a valid argument, and bitcoin is equally as valid an investment as RIO. You can buy some, hang on to it for a while, and then find some other mug to sell it to. Your profit or loss is equally real. It has provided a return over time and a store of value, and "safe" is just a value judgement. I do not believe an income stream is necessary, because you can always simulate that by gradual incremental sales if wanted. Each to his own.
Ironknut - the relevance (or it would be relevancy if you remember the South Sea and Tulip bubbles) is that we were considering portfolio stability, balancing and succession planning, and bitcoin was proffered as an element to be considered for that. Indeed, it is said to be mined so is quite pertinent. As is Alas's "port"folio.
whether the art that i enjoy to have hanging on my walls has any value at all, it something that an auctioneer will, when i eventually peg out, decide for my estate by my executors. in the meanwhile, i enjoy each piece for its beauty and pleasure it affords to me.
fwiw, my cellars are well stocked with vintage port. i have now just 3 bottles left from taylors 1977 and then will switch to the 2 cases i have remaining of grahams 1980. at some point, probably at the point when i am not quite dribbling and incoherent, and finished the bulk of my cellar, i will open one of the 4 bottles i bought of *****a do noval nacional 2011.
sure, fine wines, it could be argued have no place in an investment portfolio (and for me they don't) but i enjoy these friends and family.
In common with ironknut and eccles04, I share their opinion for Bitcoin.
In general, asset classes must provide a systemic return over time and a safe store of value. Bit coin does not meet such requirement, provides no income stream and through volatility has no prospect of long term capital appreciation. it is entirely a digital invention that can be easily replicated. The site that actually tracks such "joke currency", coinmarket.com list over 4,000 differnt types of digital currency.
Dealing in this joke nonsense is unregulated, uses a vast amount of electricity (roughly the same as Argentina) and as far as I am concerned are the foundation for thieves to prospec. If BDC wishes to put good money into an intangible and speculative transaction entirely his affair.
But, since the generation of electricity is still based on coal and fossil fuels, then I suppose it could be argued that even a worthless speculative gamble which I believe Bitcoin to be benefits shareholders in RIO.
Do explain what Bitcoin has to do with Rio Tinto,as i am ignorant as to the relevance. Thanks in advance.
"you can't travel with it, or use it for some other utility"
er.. yes you can. You can travel anywhere in the world with it and you can trade it for goods and services and fiat. It is even legal tender in some countries and nobody can stop you at the airport and take it from you as it's non physical. The biggest utility of all is that it stores value over long periods of time.
And when you say people need to be a bit stupid to invest in bitcoin, I would suggest it is you who's maybe the stupid one.
Bitcoin was $400 in 2016 when I first started buying it. Your investment in Rio Tinto would need to reach £3,800 per share within the next 7 years for you to get that kind of return.
So maybe before calling people stupid, check the long term chart.
Let's check again in another 7 years. I bet you the fiat price of Bitcoin will be 5-10x what it is now.
You need to be a bit stupid to "invest" in bitcoin, when I say that it has no intrinsic value, I know that is true because if it did you would be able to eat it, wear it, travel with it, or use it for some other utility, but you can't. All you can do is hope that some other mug will one day give you some real money for it and as we know, there are always plenty of mugs. Which is how the gambling industry survives.
.....continue
So if Bitcoin is truly unique (scarce), why not combat that by creating exact copies of the Bitcoin blockchain and increase the supply beyond 21 million by creating multiple chains?
Well, that's already been tried hundreds of times. As the code won't allow more Bitcoin to be issued than the code permits (issued on a schedule that halves every 4 years until all 21 million Bitcoin have been mined), in order to create another copy of Bitcoin you have to fork it, which creates a new copy of the blockchain. Some famous examples of these forks are; Bitcoin BSV, Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Diamond, Bitcoin Cash etc. All copies of Bitcoin and all failures.
The important concept to understand here is: Bitcoin is a network (with network effects), all 'copies' of the Bitcoin blockchain ultimately wither and die on the vine because no miner is going to allocate huge amounts of cost (energy) to start mining a fake copy of Bitcoin when they can mine real Bitcoin which has tremendous value.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xs2MkvnFDE
LoggyLogbot,
Why Bitcoin and not 'crypto'.
That was an aspect I struggled with when I first began studying it and it all boils down to how it came into being, its immutable rule set and the network effects it's created since inception.
Bitcoin began as an internet monetary network with an immutable set of mathematical rules at its core which is protected behind a wall of energy and a decentralised protocol structure. It was and always will be governed by these mathematical rules rather than 'rulers' (people). Even those who helped bootstrap the Bitcoin network back in 2009, they all had to conform to the rule set from the very beginning. i.e. if they wanted to acquire any Bitcoin, then they either had to mine it or buy it off someone who had already mined it and was willing to sell to them. There was no other way of acquiring Bitcoin other than mining it or buying previously mined Bitcoin. The same is true today and the same will be true 100 years from now. 14 years of CIA, Chinese and Russian hackers trying to attack it can attest to that.
Now compare that to 'crypto' which are tokens governed by groups of people (who control the code) and the incentives behind the creation of these 'me too' Bitcoin copies become quite evident.
With 'crypto' it is people rather than energy & mathematics who 'control' the code, so the incentive is for these people to issue themselves with lots of free tokens to try and enrich themselves and their backers. They can also increase the supply of coins and change the underlining code whenever they want which effectively undermines the entire value proposition and why crypto and not Bitcoin are being classified as securities by the SEC (because people incentivized by making profit is what is behind all of them). I'd go as far to say that all 'crypto' is a scam.
Bitcoin on the other hand was not created for personal gain, it's creator Satoshi Nakamoto has never sold a single coin (the coins he mined have never moved – this can be verified on the Bitcoin blockchain). Bitcoin was created to usher in a fairer and more stable monetary system post the banking bailout era (which we're still unfortunately in).
Bitcoin has value because nobody can take control of it. It's a pure digital bearer asset. That allows it to be a trusted medium of exchange. 'Crypto' on the other-hand is controlled by people, it therefore has counter-party risk and its value is much less and mostly worthless....
continue....
"What's actually being valued in such cases, more so than the quality of the art itself, is the scarcity of that art - because the artist is dead and can no longer produce any more of it. Bitcoin is a digital version of that same scarcity."
BCD, if I may join in with this discussion - the scarcity element is one of the key reasons I do not invest in Bitcoin. Bitcoin may be the most known cryptocurrency, but although there is a limited amount of Bitcoin, there is no limit to the amount of crypto. The speed and quantity of new currencies for me negate the scarcity argument. It's not for me, although I have no issues with others investing in whatever they want. We're all here to make money etc.
Alas Smith,
The pomposity of your declaration that Bitcoin has no value, when the market clearly values it highly (see its 14 year historical price chart) shows how wrong you are.
When I suggested you buy it a couple of weeks ago, the price was at $27,000, it's now over $30,000 (which is still cheap for what it is). Had you taken my advice you'd be up over 10% already.
It's funny when, as soon as the intrinsic value argument is lost, the unresearched suddenly switch to tangibility as their next argument for why they won't study it
'it has value because I can physically hang it on my wall and the artist is dead'
and they say such things without a hint of irony.
What's actually being valued in such cases, more so than the quality of the art itself, is the scarcity of that art - because the artist is dead and can no longer produce any more of it. Bitcoin is a digital version of that same scarcity. A decentralised, purely mathematical network backed by energy, ensures that no more than 21 million Bitcoin can ever be produced. The invention results in digital scarcity and an immutable ledger (digital scarcity was impossible prior to the invention of Bitcoin). That's why it's often referred to as digital gold.
Before espousing on a subject you clearly know nothing about, may I suggest you at least go and educate yourself on the subject matter.
https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/training/annual-national-training-seminar/2018/Emerging_Tech_Bitcoin_Crypto.pdf
https://www.hope.com/
Rio SP appears to have lost a bit of it's correlation to Iron Ore recently...
Best to filter BouncyDadCat - so far up his/her colon that all can see is own ankles - argument will be countered with rubbish that has the same foundation as the underlying claim that bitcoin has value. It does not, but it does not mean that it is not provided with commodity status. His or her contributions on the subject are highly articulate (which is why I have recommended his/her post). It does not mean that I endorse the claim of verisimilitude for what is essentially puffery.
BDC has all the eloquence and authoratative sanguine to induce the gullible to part with their money. AND, so the saying goes, so the gullible SHOULD be so deserving.
That BDC has chosen to suggest introduce a red herring into what I had hoped would provoke the exploration of whether salvaged elements will influence revenue for one of the major mining operators in the world is perhaps indicative of an obsession with the frivolous inconsequence of tokens.
Oh, and on the same subject, one of my passions is collecting art, in particular landscape, still life and portrait artists from the 17th through to the early 20th Century. These might not appeal to the majority. Art does grab headlines with works fetching high price at auction and perhaps has a similar "value" to mathematical tokens - the difference being tangible and once an artist is dead, finite is known (and might still be worthless).
Eccles cake,
Bitcoin was first priced in 2010 at $0.10.
$0.10 + 20,000,000% = $20,000. You can't argue with the facts.
There's no such thing as 'intrinsic value'. Value is always subjective, i.e. it's in the eyes of the valuer and what value that something brings to them. A glass of water's value to me right now: Low. A glass of water's value to a man dying of thirst in the desert: High.
In respect to their failing currency, the people of Argentina (who are currently experiencing 100% annual inflation) place a very high value on Bitcoin. Same in Venezuela, Turkey, Nigeria, Lebanon and China (because of capital controls).
Bitcoin has value because it's a decentralised hard money with a scarce supply that anyone can own, transfer & transact in, without permission from a 3rd party (such as a bank, institution or a government). It's also an insurance policy on too much government debt and too much money-printing.
It's only those who haven't done the required amount of research that don't like Bitcoin. Essentially, people like yourself (who admittedly, are the majority).
However, once you learn the significance of the invention that is Bitcoin (and how it solved the Byzantine generals problem) you will then begin to understand the power of it and why so many people around the world keep placing a higher & higher value on it. Until then, you won't, you'll just parrot sound bites uttered by others (who also haven't done the research).
And the reason Bitcoin keeps going up in value is for a similar yet opposing reason; more people are studying/understanding it. And once you understand it – you buy it. It sort of happens in waves and that's why it's volatile. People confuse this volatility with risk. Amazon stock was volatile between 1995 and 2005, but if you had really taken the time to understand what the internet was, then you'd know where it was heading, you wouldn't have confused Amazon's business model with risk.
I don't care if you buy Bitcoin or not. To me, you're just like one of those people who, in 1995, claimed they would NEVER use the internet (because they didn't yet understand its importance & the impact it would have on humanity). Ultimately, you'll end up using Bitcoin, whether you know it or not.
N.B. Unless you're over 300 years old, there's no way you could possibly 'remember' the South sea bubble of 1720.
"Bitcoin has gone up 20,000,000% since it's inception. Annualised, that's 1429% growth per year over the last 14 years." A superb demonstration that you can fool a lot of people most of the time, remember the Southsea Bubble? I do and I also know that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value whatsoever but there are plenty of fools out there and there always will be.
Iron ore rallies along with copper after Chinese Premier Li Qiang said that growth has picked up this quarter and more stimulus was in store:
https://twitter.com/business/status/1673623469597007877
Iron ore rises as investors mull what China might do next to bolster its economy:
https://twitter.com/BNCommodities/status/1671835817105399808
"The People’s Bank of China’s implemented a surprise rate cut last week, but the call for more measures is growing. State-run media ran front-page articles Wednesday saying the central bank is likely to ease monetary policy further."
Alas Smith,
I don't view a hard digital money that's backed by energy and ruled my mathematics (rather than humans) as gambling, I view it as the next evolution in hard money, but each to their own.
Bitcoin has gone up 20,000,000% since it's inception. Annualised, that's 1429% growth per year over the last 14 years.
When AI begins trading with other bots, it won't use fiat, it'll use Bitcoin as the digitally native internet currency.
The future is upon us.
Anyway, I'll leave it there. Good luck with your other investments 🙏
Fromage,
The energy it consumes is what makes it unhackable. Energy is the security budget.
Bitcoin miners also seek out stranded energy as it's the cheapest kind. It doesn't compete with household energy users.
https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/08/23/the-more-energy-bitcoin-uses-the-better/
BouncyDeadCat - there is not the slightest chance that I would EVER consider investing in what is basically a mathematical solution to a nonsensical mathematical question that has somehow captured the imagination of some (gullible) persons claiming to be investors.
I do not gamble, instead I try and discover as much as I can about the proposed business in which I wish to invest. This starts by looking at the historic accounts,, then the managers records and finally the potential reward for me.
Many mistakes have been made by me with such strategy, but my long term track record is over 13% compound growth over the last 44 years. Currently my portfolio is up 10.75% this year and is on track for over 18% growth.
If you are interested in my strategy, there will come a point when I will create and make a substantial distribution into a Family Investment Company which will be an unlimited company. The trigger point will be once portfolio exceeds £5m and more probably £6m as the setting up costs are huge, require a team of specialist lawyers and accountants to write the articles of association. I have had initial meetings with accountants to discuss this, but as IHT is (again) subject for revision, a decision is not there for the taking for me and my circumstance.
Bouncy: it takes courage to invest in emperors' clothes when the huge numbers or save-the-world zealots who have invested finally connect the two halves of their brains. Anything based on burning as much energy as possible as rapidly as possible will not last.
Alas_Smith,
Maybe consider allocating 3-5% to Bitcoin and distribute the private key amongst family members under a multi-signature set up. No fees and it can all be done without wills, trusts, probates etc and just kept within the family.
It's also a type of wealth that can be taken anywhere in the world without seeking permission from any central authority, bank or institution. Easy to set up too.
Bitcoin is a volatile asset, but the increase in value over the last 14 years (since its inception) has been up. Best performing asset over the last decade & the next evolution of the internet. Surely worth a 2% allocation.