Member Info for WolfofWarks

The shareholder is the last person who matters in these bankruptcy processes, they are back of the queue, they get something if there is something left to give after everybody else has been paid. Seriously guys you have to understand this. Look these things up. Understand limited liability and the risks you take on when you invest in a company.

The court is not there to protect the shareholders. This is not a takeover in the usual sense, it’s a deleveraging transaction in which in almost every case the company ends up with a different capital structure and new owners in the main at the end of it.

The company will be taken over by virtue of the equity is about to be given away or sold to satisfy its lenders.

Elvis - this might will end up de-listed, but it will be because the current lenders are hedge fund types and they might well take it private, turn it around then take it public again in an IPO.

‘ Point of chapter 11 is not to protect creditors. UK might be. In America Chapter 11 is to protect the company from creditors and other parties. The judge has the ultimate power in proceedings .I say again. Research the Sears case for a great example of the chapter 11 process.’

Ian - as usual in these matters you are completely wrong. The C11 gives the company a stay of execution from certain legal actions but it’s purpose is to give the company time to strike a deal with its creditors. It’s designed so they get as much out of the deal as is possible and for jobs to be protected, etc.

As I keep telling you the judge does not have the power to decide the outcome - that will be done by creditor vote. The role of the court is supervisory - making sure all claims are heard, every party treated fairly according to their claim, voting rights, etc.

The scheme of the arrangement is e D4E. It’s the sorting out to the balance sheet, the deleveraging transaction, etc, etc.

https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/0-107-7201?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)

They don't though, that's the point of a bankruptcy. The process is designed to protect the creditors, they are the ones who will vote and they will have the ultimate say. The scheme of arrangement is the D4E.

No one knows if the company will be delisted or not, it's wild speculation off the back of a legal bill in which the company would have taken advice on a whole myriad of possibilities.

‘22/10 Sophie Winton in Slaughter and May document, page 20 “preparing email to Investec and FCA submission relating to the delisting process” … there won’t be a listed share in a few months time, we are all about to be bought out!’

Elvis - investec are in the DIP consortium. Why would they buy cineworld out when they are owed money? Has anyone even considered that this is in relation to the D4E and Newco, you know the whole point of the C11 like.

From the RNS:

'9 November 2022 - EVRAZ plc (“EVRAZ” or the “Company”) announces that the Company’s auditor, Ernst & Young LLP, has informed the Company that it is terminating its audit services to EVRAZ due to the sanctions status of the Company.

So far, the Company has been unable to find a UK audit firm or a UK auditor willing to replace Ernst & Young LLP as the Company’s statutory and/or the group’s auditor.'

Infinity you don't half talk some nonsense.

'I thought the first post was an acrostic poem.

But
Anyway
No-one
Knows
Resources
Unless
Peter
Tells us'

Bravo!

'This will be taking over. But by another company who have deep pockets and can clear the debt while buying the company'

There's virtually zero chance of that happening in this market. No one is buying profits two or three years in the future. The M&A boom of 18 months ago is over.

The sad thing is when he does mention something about the company or the c11 situation he’s largely incorrect.

God only knows what his investment theory is.

Ian - the judge’s role in this is supervisory. It’s the creditors and the company who decides how this ends not the judge.

Plus I don’t think the senior lenders realistically expect to get all their money back from this, at least not in the short to medium term.

If major parts of the business were sold maybe the DIP finance is cleared.

‘you need to understand the difference between:
1. The price of the share including debt
2. The price of the share excluding debt’

Actually the most common method of valuing a business by sophisticated investors is to value the future free cash flows of a business and discount them which is basically to adjust them but by time value of money by applying a cost of capital (Usually that particular investors cost of borrowing, interest rate, etc).

The market cap is only really relevant in spotting whether an opportunity is under or over valued.

Sadly I was quite happy with the previous budget. The subsequent U-turns and this new budget feel like the rug has been pulled from under.

Ah well all for the greater good I guess.

Ian - what makes you so convinced CINE will be sold? My understanding is that it’s been touted as a possible option but surely it would be a carve up by some of the lenders to reduce the debt burden?

You’re talking about it like it’s absolute gospel nailed on but I don’t see anything that could draw anyone to this conclusion.

That’s not how it works though. The past is just that. Valuation models are forward looking. Future free cash flow is what matters here.

Hers was at the height of the meme craze and was a US stock.

Highly unlikely that would happen here because CW is in the wrong market and many of these meme investors have been badly burned.

Ian - you talk like you are some sort of insider but we all know from the ‘illegal’ $1bn loan that you were telling us wouldn’t happen that you talk nonsense.

Tegop - seriously I haven’t spun anything.

Sammy if the chat is too highbrow for you stick to licking windows pal.

"Mooky will have their own shares as their best interest. I just happen to be holding the same kind of shares."

For now you do. Who knows what happens if Newco is created from the D4E.

"It would be interesting if the judge would allow mooky to run every shareholder over to keep a chunk of the company. The judge already 'told' them to consider buy offers."

The judge's job isn't to look after shareholders it's to look after debt holders, employees, suppliers and anyone else the company owes money to. When you buy shares you have limited liability, which means your loss is restricted to the value invested. That's as much protection as you'll get. Shareholders won't get a vote on the D4E, it'll be settled by the creditors.

Magmanus - you constant drivel is clouding what's quite a good conversation happening between myself and Tegop.

Tegop - you have this all wrong imo. The bank that has leveraged the family loans in probably not too impressed at the moment as their collateral is virtually worthless. Plus as Hexam has pointed out several times as insiders it would be highly unlikely that they could have sold their shares knowing that the company was about to run out of cash.

So your boost off off this news is completely artificial, just like the boost the other week about the first day motions being settled. For anyone other than a PI these were non events. Literally no news news entered the public domain other than planned events reaching their conclusion.

It’s terribly romantic thinking Mooky has your best interests at heart. Only time will tell but I think with these matters self interest always comes into play.

Tegop - yes but him and Israel are the ones to smooth the D4E transaction through - otherwise we end up in the liquidation scenario and the carcuss gets ripped apart. So while I don’t think they have much power at the moment as things are they have a certain influence to help get this through. I know that sounds contradictory but I’m sure you get my drift.

It would be possible to give him a slice of Newco and it’s even been mentioned about him buying the ROW business which was the original company before all the leveraged acquisitions.