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I pretty much said this would happen post roc listing, this thing got pumped and now it’s gettig dumped. Some are talking of a steady rise. Steady rise based in what exactly? We have no idea how well the company is doing since the trading update at which time it held st around 4p now we are worth 3 times that because NT did a couple of podcasts revealing nothing new?
I know I keep banging on about it but to get a meaningful rise we will need an update on sales to show this venture was the right decision and we are heading in the right direction. I personally don’t think we will see that sort of update until after Christmas anyway maybe jan-feb but I suspect they won’t be as good as people hope. Then all focus will then shift to the seeds for which we will need to wait another 6+ months to find out if that works it a will all start to get them same feel as HNR again with jam tomorrow.
@MrNation - and as someone so heavily invested i am sure you are completely capable of being unbiased in your reasoned arguments and anyone not sharing in the positivity based on nothing but hopes much be either a troll or the dick turpin of zoetic out to get your shares.
@jbatch - for clarification i was refering to zoetics earnings. I am aware as everyone else on here HNR is bringing in some revenue, currently around 100k per month with oil and gas but we also have to look at overheads to realise its not sustainable even if we don't sell those assets near term unless zoetic starts producing. Maybe zoetic already has and the stuff is flying off the shelves, the point i am raising is we have nothing to back that up either way since the trading update so the massive share price rise since can only be attributed to the expected OTC listing and with some now selling to lock in those profits would go some way to explaining the volatility at present but also has nothing to sustain the share price at these levels now its risen.
@andy
maybe I have, or maybe i haven't? how does that relate to the points i'm making? or are you also claiming we are getting a dividend by 2020 Q2 and seed sales to the value of 8 figures?
referring to MrNation in the first paragraph for clarity. Apologies.
you are by far the biggest ramper on here. nothing you are saying is based on facts only speculation, hopes and aspirations, the same ones the company has been relying on for years. The company has overheads circa £2.5million no revenue that we are yet aware of and you're talking about dividends, you are living in fantasy land. just like the seed sales which you talk of as though its guaranteed, which it isn't by a long shot.
the share price volatility at the moment is enough to make LTH seem Bi-Polar. the market will dictate the share price and right now with so many unknowns there isnt anything to warrant a massive price rise. It was simply way above what it should have been because some investors probably jusmped on board prior to the OTC announcement to cash in on the early rise from the eventual RNS and will now bail out and lock in their profits but to each their own. I suspect this will end up back below 7p levels soon enough, there isnt anything to justify the spike in price since the trading update.
Hey Al87,
i mentioned a few weeks ago when the ramping was going on it was like a pump and dump with rainbow chasers en mass on this board and my post was removed. I think its important to be realistic, someone previously referred me to the RNS 6 weeks ago update. The RNS i am well aware of, and at the time i discussed it to the displeasure of some rampers on here.
some on here keep thinking every slight bit of discussion should warrant a rise but the only thing that will take this up and keep it there is results. we wont get those for a little while yet but rampers on here like ramping over every mention of zoetic.
As I said previously JJAL the rise so far is based on pure ramping and rainbow chasing as there has been nothing tangible posted since the trading update with regards to distribution and store numbers or revenue of the new venture or as you mentioned the OTC listing. With so few shares in existence it is true this can rise fast but this can also fall just as quickly. The only thing certain right now is as of the last update the new venture generated £36,000 in revenue over several months hardly company making or transformational is it.
With this companies track record silence is a killer, we need facts and numbers not potential, optimism and ambition statements and blowing smoke about partners and what the sector is worth we had all that with RP, whilst I wouldn’t expect an update on the sales numbers until January it would be peace of mind to at least know things are far better that b the meagre revenue produced so far that we know of.
BH - firstly we announced our 1st retail sales agreement with schrader on April 1st, assuming even 1 week of talks prior to this would put us around the 7 months mark to date, and actually shows we have had the ability at least to sign retail sales agreements since then so around a 7 months time frame since first retail sales agreement talks until present day has got us to 67 stores from 0, the growth period you are correct in saying is more recent, but that doesn't change how long we have had to establish agreements and stores so i see nothing wrong with the information i provided i direct you to the RNS in april for the first sales agreement top back up that statement.
BH - "We, ZOE, do not process hemp plants into CBD..."
19th march RNS - "Machinery: $500,000 for hemp oil distillation and pouch manufacturing machines"
25th July RNS - "Zoetic is a vertically integrated CBD operation with operations "from seed to shelf""
also as a bit of a clue, where do you think the vertically integrated phrase of the CBD business is coming from? the whole point is we are doing all the stages up to packing the product ourselves and not outsourcing it and just looking for distribution and stores to sell from. If i am wrong on this please tell me who is going to be producing the CBD oil for us and where it has been mentioned by the company?
'Yes, you can sell hemp plants' thats as vague as it gets, a better question is, can we sell everything we harvest before the next harvest? again, lets go back to the RNS's
25th July RNS - "Zoetic's core asset is the 33,000 square foot state of the art indoor growing facility which can grow up to 10,000 hemp plants per harvest and with at least three harvests per year. In addition, we are growing hemp outside in two fields of 16 acres in total, planted at around 2,500 hemp plants per acre. We are targeting a yield of 30 grams of CBD per outdoor plant."
so that would be 40,000 plants from the outdoors which were planted for june and now harvested giving us 1.2million grams of CBD. So can i ask with revenues of £36,000 why we havent sold the rest of it that people such as OSG allude to, after all its as good as cash right , we can sell it wholesale. This emphasises my point that just because we are producing it that doesn't guarantee all of that calculated income per 4 month harvest because it ends up tied in stock that is stockpiled that we are hoping to shift, but to do that we need to be in as many stores as possible and from our first initial sales agreement on 1st April to the latest trading update a few days ago we have increased the stores we sell to from 18 to 67. I make no claims of if being linear as you suggest i am simply giving you the facts they have provided themselves. If you think these facts are worth heads hanging then you need to speak to NT and the team as this is all off their RNS's and performance, not mine.
yes it can be sold at any time, but that does not mean that it WILL sell as it comes time to harvest, as an example you could be sat with most of what you harvest for 10 years, how much money is that bringing in if its sat there? the point i was making was you can not take what we grow as GUARANTEED income such the likes of OSG keeps proclaiming, the same can be said for seeds. It is for this reason when looking at income you have to look at what we are actually selling of it now and bringing in as revenue where as with the commodity of oil you can sell it right away and it is therefor quite logical to use production figures to work out the monthly income from it. I do not understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
If it makes it easier to understand for you BH, based on what we currently know and BS money estimations and to prove my point, when/if the company runs out of money assuming we have no income from the sale of HNR assets can we pay staff and overheads in harvested hemp that we could sell at 'ANY' time? what about giving them chill products instead? or do we actually need cash to stay afloat? how much of the oil that we produce are we currently sat on that we could sell at any time? can you see what i am getting at? a lot of rhetorical questions there but it should make it clear what my point is by now surely.
i would add however that you are honestly clutching at straws, i have provided the facts from the companies own RNS's I have pointed out the figures provided to us from the most recent RNS's and pointed out things NT himself has said recently why wont you address those? instead you choose to hang on the word commodit , which in hindsight was a poor choice of words and lead to confusion but i was trying to illustrate a point.
MCB - back to normal discussions, I agree with you something has to be said for brand and good will but as of yet this company has neither of those that's quantifiable in any way as we are stocked in 67 stores so far having only started the company in march/april and we don't know the full details of sales agreements with these stores. However on the whole i agree with what you are saying but it sort of pairs with my current assessment of the situation based on what we know. We have little to no income soon to be no assets and what cash we have being drained away in overheads such as exorbitant salaries so a placing is looking very likely. I would expect this to happen post OTC listing as for when who knows i think that will depend on if/when the sale of assets occurs and how much we get for them or if we can explode into 1,000+ stores in the coming months as our current store uptake is terrible.
MCB - I agree, it would be foolish to sell ED at present, regardless of how little it is, its covering at least 40% of our monthly estimated overheads. The longer we keep it gives more time for zoetic to have a chance at being successful or holding off a placing. However with the production declining are we making a net gain from this, as the longer we keep it are we risking more costs with well work etc and a quicker decline, thereby the asset losing more value than we are gaining in revenue from it each month?
As a follow on, based once again on information we have in RNS's and sticking to the facts.
the zoetic facility is leased, the significant machinery is again all leased so once HNR is sold what do we actually have in tangible assets? once the HNR cash from the sale is gone our entire company value is based solely on the revenue we are bringing in, and at present whats that worth? the current mcap is £6 million, with £36,000 generated since June is that a fair price?
It's quite clear at present the only thing this company is doing is generating a salary for the management, shareholders have seen nothing in return but aspirations and jam tomorrow for a long time, we have heard the same thing time and time again. remember when we were touting DTU and our links with Schlumberger amongst others? in the past 2 years we have had £5 million cash from true, 7 figure sums in ED revenue, £3 million from a single unknown investor and several million in placings. Yet here we are, with 1 half of the company worth £2-3 million at best and the other half with everything leased and no revenue currently worth nothing and we have £500,000 debt (we never had debt previously) only £1 million in the bank and overheads of £2.5 million (with comical salaries based on performance) which will eat up both our entire assets worth anything and any cash we have left.
But on the other hand NT says morale within the team is high which makes it all ok.
discussing the facts as they are is not deramping, you on the other hand are a blatant ramper OSG, nothing you post is based on reality.
here's some facts for you
+ HNRs entire assets are generating circa 100k a month and declining, we are looking to sell them but at this time what we will receive for them is unknown however with what we know it wouldn't be anticipated to be much based on NTs assessment.
+ the Zoetic side of the business to date has generated £36,000 of revenue since June
+ our current overheads based on NTs own pro forma estimations are £2.5 million per year
+ we have £1 million in cash after a recent drawdown of a bank loan of £500,000
in summary as things stand unless we are selling in at least 1,000 stores (we have gone from 0 to 67 stores to date in 7 months) we will only be burning through cash that we currently have and from whatever we get for our HNR assets when sold along with the small amount from bonds we are looking to get back. We will be producing seeds in early 2020 but just as with the current Chill products we have no idea of how much of these we will actually sell, despite rampers on here stating with crystal ball cirtainty we will sell millions and generate a fortune.
BH- regarding the commodity issue, the point i was trying to make is we can sell every barrel of oil out of the ground, as we are retailing this product you can not guarantee you will sell every bit of CBD from what you grow/harvest, so we have to use sales figures/revenue to give a reflection of income rather than what we grow/extract as you can with oil, i hope this clears things up.
There’s that word again, potential. This is HNR in all but name make no mistake about that. You are also basing value of sales to Mcap as though seed sales and crop sales is a certainty when it isn’t. Just like BH posted next year we can grow the equivalent of 12 million packs of chill smokes and asks the retail value of that, who cares? Since June which is 5 months ago the revenue shows they have sold the equivalent of 3,600 packs of chill smokes at 10 dollars a pack. It’s laughable expectations that arnt Accepting the current reality.
However I will provide some additional financial fact for you. If we didn’t take the 500k cash loan or the 300k cash from ‘high net worth’ investors that we were told we didn’t need we would currently have 200k cash. Based on NTs pro forma assessment in the RNS of 2.5million a year expenses that would mean with current revenue we would have had enough cash to get until the end of this month before we would be broke.
apologies BH how rude of me, have a nice evening also!
BS - That would be my understanding as well with the sale or return of goods, i would expect them to pay for the goods initially then be credited back after such a period for anything not sold which could account for revenue but I could be wrong we have no way of knowing. Would be interesting to have more insight into the terms but i believe as you rightly say that is not something we will know for some time.
BH - "Nuba, after the first paragraph I started to lose interest in your post....." well figures from an RNS are hard to dispute so being dismissive is a much better approach for someone only wishing to dwell on aspirations, but even with half the stores they claim to be stocking that revenuet is still poor. I am sure you were just as optimistic about all HNRs previous projects and their revenue stream.
BH - "In years to come seed sales will more than cover the company costs." Once again your back to talking about aspirations the company has aka jam tomorrow without acknowledging that the current income from CBD is alarmingly poor. It is in the companies interests to be positive and put things in a positive light for investors and to attract new investors, to make an informed decision it is best to look at the figures.
you say tom-ay-to i say tom-ah-to, i dont see it as a negative view but a more realistic view. I assure you I am not looking for any pricing opportunity to get this lower to dive right in but why would you believe a stranger over the internet right? As i said previously, never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
As for the rest of what you posted now that is a bit more interesting and worthy of discussion. It is true we have had a few set backs with payment which can have an effect on sales but this would surely only affect the online side of things? so we do still have 67 stores to date selling the products. We are with a few distributors now and the Mr Checkout can open a lot more doors. You are right in my pessimism but this is based solely on the information they have provided and their track record. Sure we could see a different picture in 6, 9 or even 12 months but with this company even 6 months is a long time, if you go back 6 months just look at how the share price has fallen.
I do want to touch on your numbers though with some crude napkin maths. As you rightly say, if we are in 1000 stores and can get $15 a day profit from each of them this can be considerable income I would not argue that fact. But if we stick to what we know so far factually based on the RNS's provided with the figures from the 67 stores we have had , assuming all sales were from there and none online even though there surely must have been at least some, the £36,000 in 2 months and that is revenue and also not taking into account at least 18 of these stores have actually been trading since June as they point out. So to use your example that would be $662 (£536) per store and at your profit margin examples that would be $250 (£202) approx. profit from each store in 2 months so roughly £100 a month. Now i do not think each store only sold that much CBD i think this is simply a reflection of just how much competition there also is out there but that is what they could have sold of our products on average.
Again, forgive me if maths is wrong but based on this using the figures provided and calculated above for revenue and with overheads of £2.5 million a year ( £208,000 per month) and using your assumption of profit margin (i realise you were just giving an example)
that would mean
£100 a month per store profit
£208,000 overheads per month
based on that we would need a tad over 2,000 stores and we have only added 49 in 6 months to a total of 67 stores (since the announcing of 18 schrader stores on 1st April).
Now i realise that there are assumptions made here with profit margins and this is not taking into account the sale of anything else such as these seeds but this is only to break even, at these numbers there is still no actual profit for investors to see. So surely you can see why I have my doubts about what we will sell.
I should also point out that seed sales are the new jam tomorrow. So regardless of performance over the new few months, if great then it will be fantastic, if not, well, there's always the seeds.
I do have an honest question for some though such as BH, if we can get into more stores and more ditribution to get the brand out there its great news. But do you not consider the current sales revenue over the last 2 months of only £36,000 -with most likely a large portion of this made up of initial stocking of shelves- alarmingly poor considering what the companies expenses are and them stating we would be profitable by end of year?
BH - "From here, the prospects of a ‘bag’ in 6 months time are good. Is that rampy enough for you?" this is exactly the sort of reason some on here such myself post. You and OSG amongst others are always posting positives and ignoring the facts unless they suit your argument. During that post of what you know not once did you point out that we also know the revenue for this new venture so far is £36,000 compared to our core assets which we intend to sell which has brought in £1.12 million. Call me what you wish, but i believe pros and cons should all be weighed up and your group of rampers always ignore the negatives. If the revenue for this new venture was circa £1 Million since the start you would be singing it from the rafters.
if you use basic common sense why would you not think a placing was a possibility at some point? if this business takes of we wont that part is true but that's just aspirations and best case scenario. If you look at the facts as they have posted themselves and income from ED concluding a placing is a very real possibility. Simple maths really, we are bringing in 100k a month from ED which although gradual will decline further we have no other income source yet our overheads are circa £2.5 million. We currently have £1 Million cash some of which will be from the loan we recently drew down of 500,000. Its facts like these rampers dont like talking about. instead they would rather focus on the aspirations of the company and the price of their products and profit margins.
I could grow weeds in my back garden, if i was to tell you I can increase my weed growing area by 50 acres and the profit margin on me selling those weeds has gone up from 80% to is 90% and morale is high between everyone living at home and we are excited about the future and potential of selling these weeds into a weed market worth £350 Billion annually would that actually tell you anything about how profitable i am? of course not! the figures of revenue, overheads and sales do that! and what they tell us is at this moment they have made nothing and overheads are huge compared to money we have in the bank. The RNS is just full of aspirations and talk of what price they want to sell their products at, it doesn't actually mean anything in terms of income produced.
This is the big difference between growing Hemp and producing a commodity like Oil. Whatever Oil you can get out of the ground you can sell so BOED is a great way of seeing production and working out income from that. However with Hemp you cant guarantee you can sell everything you can grow so you have to focus on what you actually sell. I recently posted that I do not think we will shift anything like we will need to be profitable and will end up either stockpiling it or growing less and this recent RNS of a change of plans for outdoor expansion could be further proof of this. statements such as morale is high within the team also again, means absolutely nothing.
as I expected sales are poor but I did expect some sales figures for initial stocking which is where the bulk will come from on this. The replenishing off stock for ongoing sales can be expected to be far less than this.
I also note as mentioned in my previous posting as I stated then that you don’t increase production if you can’t shift the stuff and we are now seeing hint if that with the binning if the idea of outdoor expansion and sticking to the indoor acreage. We do have revenues of £1.15 million but nearly all of that is from assets we are trying to sell, only £0.036 of that is for our all eggs in 1 basket venture in a company that currently has £1million cash half of which is a loan and overheads in the region of £2.5million it hardly paints a pleasing picture.
it’s worth noting the company’s now being a CBD company currently has a market cap of £5million, but once assets are sold out only income stream to date has brought in £36,000 so what’s the company really worth? And with current revenues and expenses how can we not expect a placing? No doubt when the placing comes rather than keep the lights in and pay salaries it will Be phrased as money for further expansion on out ‘vertically integrated CBD’ business.
Whilst getting other distributors on board is good news from a numbers perspective there really isn’t any good news in this end of substance only aspirations of more stores and sales aka jam tomorrow, the reality at present is 99% of our revenues are from an asset we are selling and our overheads are still huge for what we are bringing in.
OSG i agree we need numbers and figures and specifics
"It's going to be good as indoor and outdoor harvests are real - money to be harvested and made." we dont make money from harvesting, we make it from selling and the growing of plants is pretty much a given regardless of how much we grow so for me they could grow 10 times what they are it is still nothing to get excited about unless you are selling it all, after all you could just be stockpilling 10 times as much and in that case the hemps as good as growing weeds.
If we are selling more than we can grow? now thats something to get excited about and is what's called a 'good problem' to have. but thats fantasy land for this company as things stand. The only figure that matters from this venture is the sales, not what we are growing.