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Leemuu- I stated the same thing myself months ago when people were inferring order numbers correlated to sales which quite rightly it does not. I think we will only get an update on numbers now come july in final results and if i was a betting man i would say they are probably dismal or they would have been singing from the rooftops by now that they have achieved something, same with actual seed sales.
Bare in mind they have moved the goalposts for this. when first starting Zoetic it was announced we would break even by christmas, to date i would be surprised if its even done £150,000 in revenue which for a company with £2 million outgoings per year and change, is laughable. Especially when this thing has cost us millions to get up and running. As i stated previously, without HNR legacy assets, this thing has less revenue than your small local shop.
AL87 - it is funny you should mention that, when reading an earlier quote regarding Path Investments if it wasn't for the income of HNR i would say it sounded eerily similar. make no mistake, we essentially just gave that away, the fact we got a bunch of shares in a worthless company and 5% royalties. What is 5% of nothing exactly?
As i said previously though, this DTU wasn't even on the radar for me as it was gathering dust anyway and added no value to the company or contributed in anyway. The main focus is on Zoetic and the ongoing revenue stream of HNR until/if that asset is sold.
The gas sale however was interesting, i realise it wasn't bringing anything in financially, but as someone rightly said, this is what lead us down the rabbit hole into Zoetic and from HNR. This is what was touted as being amazing and greatly increasing yields and they sang its praises when trialed with district 8.
The gas sale for me poses two questions, was it initially just BS to investors for which they have a track record and amounted to nothing but guff to sucker investors in? and if not, and it is as good as they say for the crops growth and yields, why have they just sold it to PATH Investments who we will now have to buy it from to grow? something doesn't add up.
I have looked over the announcement here and PATH Investments and i can see the Terms of the Transaction regarding DTU but no mention of what we have specifically been given for the Gas, even the royalties are based off of DTU (for what that's worth) so have we just thrown the gas part in with DTU because DTU uses it? because royalties only relate to DTU so if we want that gas we will now have to buy it from them, as in effect from the terms of that transaction, it seems like we have just given it to them for free with DTU tech which they 'purchased'. If i am wrong on this anyone with insight who can clear it up with some RNS/announcement information would be greatly appreciated.
The only thing that will possibly make this share move either way is information on HNR assets or Chill/Seeds news.
This RNS just tells us they have sold something (DTU) that brings in nothing, hardly costs anything for the princely sum of Path shares which are worth nothing. It's no wonder the share price hasn't moved either way but it still had to be announced so it is what it is.
BigBazooka - the irony of that statement is not lost on me. But it was also mentioned at the time to help reduce the cost of DTU as this was the driving force for why nobody was interested as it was deemed too costly. Path is just a lifestyle company as someone rightly said, buying up the assets for essentially nothing (their shares) and seeing if they can do anything with it whilst paying themselves a nice salary and 'advisors' alike. Path investments Directors a.k.a The Bollinger boys
trillsg - pretty much just hot air. all the talk of distribution but no mention of sales increase which tells me they have still to date probably not sold much since christmas. The rampers were banging on about NT then as though he was the second coming of christ and the seeds once harvested would explode.
Well here we are, middle of the year, the non achiever NT is as good as gone and no mention of sales figures for either seeds or CBD. Our assets of worth are all leased, the only value this has, a year later is still from its HNR division despite the poor oil price at present and we have spent millions on Zoetic.
barn - those paragraphs are why i have issue with Zoetic at present. I'm tired of seeing the words hope, expect, potentially etc in their RNS after years of the same old same old its just guff that doesn't hold or tie them to anything concrete. I am a big believer in sticking to facts and whats in the bank with this company so i personally would just like to start seeing RNS's without wordplay with jam tomorrow and to just state we have secured the sale of seeds for X amount or we have revenue from chill brand of X amount which proved to be something substantial. With money rolling in that covers overheads and makes the company profitable so shareholders can actually see some return on investment.
I could find you a truck load of companies on here that have a board full of rampers that are expecting 'transformational' news that's just around the corner when X happens and how its greatly undervalued and a steal at this price it will explode soon etc, but constantly seeing RNS's with words like anticipate and hope and potentially is tiresome because it means nothing and holds them to nothing and is just a way of keeping the investor money rolling in. The Christmas update put revenue for Zoetic at £65,000, a third of this was for the christmas period where most retail picks up which after 7 months is dismal revenue, since then where is the update on revenue for this? we have talk of distribution and product launches but it means nothing if you are not selling anything. no doubt the COVID-19 reasoning will play out in the mid year update but its worth noting that they had still been able to trade for around 3 months prior to any lockdowns so come july the numbers will be interesting.
I am not interested in the money from schrader as it means nothing for the company as it is just income from the shares we will get regardless and has nothing to do with the business itself, i want to know what the revenue is from Zoetics CBD and chill brand sales, i want to know what the revenue is from the seeds as quite frankly main market listed company or not, how many stores is the company in so we can get an idea or revenue per store? as the last update in December of £65,000 showed that even your local shop was bringing in more revenue than these guys were and they sure as hell are not getting paid a nice salary or valuing their shop in the millions. we can call this Zoetic a CBD business and whatever else you like but when the only known sources of income so far are from HNR assets and share sales to schrader its just hot air.
distribution deals, seed quality, product line ups and launches, potential discussions to Mr. Big company valued at whatever, to each their own with if they believe this company will go places and are about to do well as we all have our opinions. However for me, I will stick to facts and in the words of ron tidwell on jerry maguire - show me the money.
barn0604 - when a companies only significant revenue is the sale of shares in said company what do you really have? tell me how much revenue has the zoetic arm brought in? as for the last management and being duped things have not changed, its just some still have blinkers on and can't see the forest for the trees. The company would love to shake off the past, to hide their track record of dismal failure, i however will not. The jam tomorrow M.O and carefully chosen wording in statements has not changed since then and the share price has continued to fall.
"that bloke saved this business quite frankly" very bold statement to make. before NT took over Zoetic was already announced, since he has been in charge how much revenue has Zoetic brought in? asside from the initial partner of schrader which was established on the outset who else of significance has come in since then? he hasn't saved anything, the company still burns through cash and has no significant source of revenue within Zoetic.
we certainly do have lots of seeds, but seeds are not money until they are sold, the same for all these products we make which from reading on here and seeing revenue figures it sounds like 75% the customers are probably shareholders on this board. your last point is just aspirations and jam tomorrow, but we shall see what comes of that however their track record speaks for itself.
you can post about all their new products and how fantastic you think they are all you like and how the discussions are going with seeds but the only thing that matters is money in the bank and unless they start making some significant revenue to offset seed sales, once the additional funds from things such as schrader/potential HNR asset sale has been burned through there will be nothing to keep the company afloat, so far all they have done is buy time which they have done consistently for a long time whilst paying themselves a salary.
"Multi-bag by August IMO" brought to you by your family favourites, 'this will take off' and 'wouldn't want to be out of this over the weekend' [insert other ramptastic phrases here].
this share may have its spikes, but it will never have a sustained rise without a solid foundation financially, and for that it needs to start bringing in revenue and i don't mean the cash being given from the sale of shares.
shadow - the company is pretty much in schraders pocket, from the initial stores, to the share purchases even to a distributor in the form of Ox, now i am not stating there is nobody else, however a large majority of all the good news coming to this company is all based on this one company which tells me nobody else is really interested in it. The company has done nothing but burn through cash for years and the share price and dilution reflects this. For a long time i have been stating it does not matter what you grow or what products you make only what you can sell as cash is king and here the company is heading towards mid 2020 and still only talks of working towards selling something significant. The only real income this company has so far is in the form of shares and if they hadn't of got that deal done we would have been looking at a placing.
I pay little mind to some of the rampers on here as they are well underwater and refuse to face reality. The company has survived off of RNS's of hopes and dreams and jam tomorrow for a long time now but nothing financially materialistic has materialized, no doubt when the next poor results come out they can pin this one on COVID-19 but the company has been a failure for a long time NT now heading out has achieved nothing of note either other than getting a nice salary at the expense of shareholders.
I expect the rampers on here will once again resort to its typical M.O of claiming im after your shares or looking for a cheaper buy in price for myself but as someone who has been around this company now for several years, it's just a sinking ship taking shareholder money to pay its staff wages all the while rampers telling you its about to make millions and you better buy quick before it explodes.
the company was previously just about profitable on the HNR arm before the oil price collapsed but this was only subsiding losses for the company as a whole, the zoetic arm sales was quite frankly laughable and they should have been embarrassed to even show them. The seed sales that they and rampers were pinning their hopes on as the jam tomorrow which as i stated at the time the number of seeds means nothing if you cant shift them in sizable quantities are still sat there whilst they have 'discussions'. If you invest in this company its nothing more than a punt as they have very little assets as everything of note is leased and cashflow is non existent.
Last post disappeared during the recent cleanup during the ramp-a-thon that was happening on here, but just to reiterate what i posted, the rise was bound to fall back unless there was some insider trading going on. Just as with the rise for OTC listing, without anything substantial underpinning the share price there is nothing to sustain and hold a rise. We would need some form of update with numbers to show if this is a success or not before we can start building on this share price so the fall back now was inevitable. As the financials previously provided show, we are heading towards a fundraise unless the CBD picks up or these seed sales materialise so without an update either way the share price is just in a holding pattern and movements are happening on little volume.
I can not see the CBD picking up to an impactful level over a short space of time based on their performance over the prior 8 months so i am just waiting on an update regarding the seeds. The share at present represents nothing more than a punt, if the seed sales come in and they are decent, with the shares in issue this could rise very quickly. The flip side to this is if the results are once again poor or a fund raise is announced the share price will drop just as fast. Its pure crystal ball gazing at the moment from everyone regardless of what you make of the company regarding their progress since December update. Whilst it would be nice to get some numbers from the seeds and CBD come march i think its likely we wont get a real update until final results around end of July with just some fancy RNS word play to talk up progress if things are poor until then. But if the performance is not much better than the prior 8 months we will know sooner than that anyway as we will need cash.
As someone mentioned yesterday of other companies selling this wellness stuff, I hope some on here are waking up to the fact that Zoetic isn't some special snowflake that has found a gap in the market, it's selling products into a saturated market with companies that have more resources, more connections and reach for distribution and that is just to start. Our poor financial showing for the chill brand after 8 months reinforces this. It does not matter how many different products they make, only if they are selling because above all, as investors the main thing that matters is the financials as we all want to see a return on investment or at least to know this is heading somewhere positive. For us to determine that we will have to wait and see how these seeds play out and not just rely on the ramping sales reps on here telling everyone these are miracles in a bottle but i am far from optimistic based on their track record and performance to date.
Chesh - absolutely right, until that money is in the bank it’s purely speculation, what’s not speculation is to say - and supported by my previous post of financials provided from their recent RNS - that unless CBD imrpoves drastically, seed sales materialise or we receive funds in some other way such as a sale of assets. We will be out of cash by around June and need a placing/ fund raise.
To sum it up this is high risk high reward for investors, you could be rewarded if it comes good key words being ‘could’ and ‘if’, however if seed sales don’t materialise the share price is only heading one way and it’s not up.
So just for clarification, you are not disputing the facts stated from the RNS?
Zoetic standing as of end September £1 million
+ performance bonds, refunds + DT LLC cash £190,000
So £1.2 million cash with these taken into account
Monthly Revenue
£100,000 HNR ED asset (although revenue from this is expected to be lower in the second half of the financial year as it will depreciate over time)
£10,000 per Month CBD venture (average taken includes the christmas sales, prior to this in a 7 week period its revenues were £9,000)
- £210,000 per month overheads (circa £2.5 million per year as announced)
unless the retail side picks up drastically in a short space of time which i find unlikely based on their progress after 8 months - and baring in mind the expansion of product lines does not equate to guaranteed revneue increases - we pretty much need these seeds to take off. Based on this companies track record, it is far from a sure thing. As someone also previously quoted the RNS im just adding the bits above from the same RNS and would further like to add the following quotes from the latest update RNS from Nick Tullock;
Seeds - "As I have said several times in recent months, we are dealing with a living organism and by altering its natural development there can be no guarantees"
CBD - "as our CBD operations expand, we should expect some cost increases primarily relating to the purchase of raw materials, manufacturing and higher headcount."
HNR - "the Company expects second half revenues to be lower in its natural resources division. "
The company - "the Group remains cash consuming overall"
lloyddie - Investors like directors and ceos with skin in the game so to speak. If they start selling off their holding it would most likely lead to the share price falling further and other investors following in his footsteps. He doesn't hold much all things considered anyway - from director deals it looks like approx £28,000 worth excluding taxes/fees - so his buying so far is more a token gesture to further put across the idea he is aligned with shareholder interests, but him selling what he does have would not be smart.
jbatch - Happy new year to you also
they could sell the shares but their value doesn't amount to much at present I believe it's 950,000 shares off the top of my head as i cant find that figure at the moment so correct me if thats wrong. I would disagree on them being cash rich, although subjective, i think having enough cash to cover them for 4 months if they had unexpected issues with ED and lost that revenue stream but they do have some cash at present to cover their losses for at least 6 months before they would need to find cash.
Again as i have stated, this does by some time for them to increase Zoetic revenue through seeds or cbd but to quote Nick Tullock once more
Nick Tullock - "we are dealing with a living organism and by altering its natural development there can be no guarantees"
plus past performance makes me cautious about what they can achieve in the 6 month window. Only time will tell but we at least know that if things stay as they are we will run out of money, they have also alluded in the RNS to lower revenue from the HNR asset and increased costs on the Zoetic side but again i have not taken these into consideration because there's nothing factual about that at present. We only know for certain what they have provided us with a week ago.
jbatch - "Overheads are not greater than revenue.... if they were we would not have doubled revenue and moved from a loss to a profit.... even you must be able to see this????"
You seem to relate revenue to profit for some reason and the above statement is nonsensical. If you arnt sure or need clarification im open to discussing it but to go on personal attacks and accuse me of not knowing anything about business or making things up that are in the RNS is silly. I have already made a post this evening laying out the financials - quite crudely mind - but its a fair guide based on information taken from the RNS that we have been provided.
jbatch - I think everyone who read the RNS would realise you are incorrect.
jbatch - "The company has moved from making a loss to making a profit.... this does not happen when revenue is lower than overheads Christmas revenue was not included in this"
Dec 23rd RNS financial review section - "Revenue in the year to date is £1.27 million from the natural resources division and £65,000 from the CBD division."
Dec 23rd RNS financial review section - "We previously announced that our pro forma operating costs are in the region of £2.5 million per annum and this remains the case."
this addresses both your points, firstly it states year to date, which means right up to the date of the RNS so christmas is included. As further proof of this I again, refer to the RNS.
CBD Division section - "£36,000 was generated during the period to 30 September 2019"
CBD Division section - "revenue in the past 30 days being equivalent to around one third of total CBD revenue generated to date. "
Year to date revenue £1.27 million, overheads circa £2.5 million, thats a net loss of £1.23 million.
finally as if further evidence was needed, i quote NT.
Financial review Section, Nick Tullock, Chief Executive of Zoetic - "the Group remains cash consuming overall"
If you actually read the RNS you would not be making the statements you are, I have taken the time to proviude you with this information but i am begining to suspect you are just trolling.
apologies, i made an error there, i stated current held cash but to clarify that was back in september so from £1-£1.2 million in september we probably have around £700,000-£900,000 depending on the bond refunds etc and have an outstanding bank loan that was drawn down of roughly £380,000.
lloydiee69 - because their total overheads are higher than the total revenue they are bringing in, we are currently relying on the current held cash of £1-£1.2 million, £380,000 of which is the bank loan we drew down we have not paid back as of yet. This cash is currently keeping us afloat, the HNR side of the business is profitable now but we do not know how much or how little (although it can not be more than its revenue) so the best way to figure it out is to just take the total revenue the company is bringing in from HNR and CBD and take off the overheads.
Zoetic standing as of end September £1 million
+ performance bonds, refunds + DT LLC cash £190,000
So £1.2 million cash with these taken into account
Monthly Revenue
£100,000 HNR ED asset (although revenue from this is expected to be lower in the second half of the financial year as it will depreciate over time)
£10,000 per Month CBD venture (average taken includes the christmas sales, prior to this in a 7 week period its revenues were £9,000)
- £210,000 per month overheads (circa £2.5 million per year as announced)
unless the Zoetic CBD/seed side of the business improves substaintially over the next 6 months we will almost be out of cash and need a fundraise. A drastic Improvement in this area will avoid it altogether from whatever revenue source be it seeds/CBD and put us on a stronger footing going forward as it is the only part of the business where we can grow. If However it flounders still then a fund raise is needed, in addition any further downtime on HNR asset or currently unacounted for expenditure within the business along with this, would move the time forward.
To summarise, things staying as they are we go broke without cash, so its a question of if you believe they can pull it off. With a track record of failure and being unable to deliver and carefully chosen words such as potential, high morale, expected, anticipate and many more i would say the odds are not good. They seem to be experts at selling a dream of jam tomorrow.
so we are losing roughly £100,000 a month at present maybe more if zoetic sells less now christmas is over and HNR revenue declines as expected.
BH - fair question, I am basing this on their performance to date and the progress they have achieved so far as well as comparing the results against where they stated we should be.
Even if we are to assume this could turn massive, even in the event of that it would take time. Unfortunately with the cash we have and the overheads we have time isnt on our side. Again even with seed sales, even if we were to assume the seed sales could take off, that is many months away as we know. Do we have the cash to get us to that point? our current cash position was £1.0 million by end of September, how much of that cash do we have left now?
The reason I would expect a placement is down to cash reserves and overheads. If you think it wont succeed then cash will run out so we need a placing. If, like yourself, you believe retail will pick up massively and the seed sales will be good, the retail still needs time to build to that and seed sales are more than 3-4 months away at least, do we have the cash to wait it out?
BH - you mean that 'theoretical' income from what you hope we will receive from stock worth millions we can sell at absolutely any time but would rather drawn down a bank loan instead? Nothing factual about that income unless its banked.
I can not predict the future, as much as you would love to point out 6 months from now that i was wrong, but the sums in compared to the sums out is quite simple. As i stated previuously, unless revenue from Zoetic picks up we will need a placing, this is fact. If revenue picks up considerably then absolutely we can avoid a placing but from what has been achieved to date and the revenue brought in it is not likely, at the present time we will need a placing as we are burning through too much cash without anything substantial to offset it. In the words of NT we are "cash consuming".
jbatch - "Show us the RNS that backs upmyour negative view, I want to see evidence from ZOETIC otherwise Shut-up and stop deramping!
* revenue from Zoetic of £65,000 since June, excluding the last 30 days and since the October update - which is around 7 weeks - it producted revenue of approx £7,000
*only 90 stores total since first announcing schraders 18 stores on 1st April representing 72 additional stores in 8 months.
*Despite HNR assets now being profitable - to what degree we do not know - our overheads are circa £210,000 per month with revenues from our Zoetic arm producing an average revenue equating to 3% of total revenue of £10,000 per month including christmas which is the busiest retail time of the year.
*Zoetic has failed to meet the expectations set out by management from over 6 months ago that we would be self sustaining a few months prior and profitable by Christmas.
*Cash and cash equivalents at beginning of period of £1.5 million, Cash and cash equivalents at end of period £1 million despite also drawing on a bank loan of $500,000 and partial refund of performance bonds
*"Indicative orders received prior to launch for these new products from our retail partners currently stand at just under US$12,000."
*Despite cost cutting - "We previously announced that our pro forma operating costs are in the region of £2.5 million per annum and this remains the case"
*"we should expect some cost increases primarily relating to the purchase of raw materials, manufacturing and higher headcount."