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Morning all, some very bitter posting this morning it seems. I can only assume some of the rampers on here or the overstretched invested do not like the facts I have been postiong out from the RNS, however they are what they are.
There is far too much waffle and insults directed towards me to cover everything but just to brush up on this and keep them factual. I never once claimed you made the comment of dividends BH, I as well as everyone on here knows who made that silly claim. As for my Christmas comment and you pointing out it doesnt matter its ''not a seasonal product'', neither are smartphones or perfumes. But as i previously stated which is as good as common knowledge, retail picks up at christmas, so there is no reason not to assume their retail products would not pick up around this time also comparable to previous months.
jbatch - "it is not insignificant and you talk about it as if it is not something we should be counting on. It is the Oil revenue that enables the business to operate profitably." This is inaccurate, the business is not operating profitably, which is the point. As for insinuating I am making things up without proof the information i provided is directly from the RNS along with store numbers/revenue
I am not disputing the rise in revenue, issue I have is that the HNR asset side of the business is providing a revenue that can only alter based on downtime and the price of oil and whilst we have done a better job of choking the wells to give a steadier flow rate and reduce the decline, this is not an asset that is going to make the company as there is no growth potential at all and it is merely subsidising out huge overheads and at present we dont know exactly how profitable this asset is only that it is profitable which could be anything. The company has already confirmed this is a fire and forget project now. It is quite right then for that reason for us to assess the Zoetic side of the business as that is where all resources are being allocated and where any potential future growth for the company lies. The issue with this is that the Zoeticx side of the business has not met the expectations set out by the company 6 months ago by a long way, the store uptake is poor and the revenue is almost none existant in comparison to overheads.
Everything else posted by yourself and even BH regarding future seed sales or what they expect to happen going forward with things they have put in place is not guaranteed and once again only amounts to aspirations of success. This has been happening for a long time with this company. All talk but when it comes tot he bottom line they fail to delivery as always. The figures provided yesterday once again confirms the venture is not producing anything like they expected. NT tries to make the RNS seem more upbeat with words like 'modest' revenue from Zoetic and stating we are still 'cash consuming' which just means poor revenue and haemorrhaging money.
Apologies it cut off at the end there,
continuted -
because they dont actually give you anything factual to base anything on and just amounts to wishful thinking.
jbatch - I am well aware of how companies can opperate, but to look to your point of cash cows, we dont have exact details on the profitability of HNR only that it is profitable, but we do now it at least has to be less than the revenue it brings in from the oil and gas each month. I understand what you are saying regarding the cash cows whilst other products are developed but that only works when your cash cows are bringing in enough to cover overheads, or you at least have sufficient funds to cover the early stages of a startup. We do not have this, for all we know the cash cow as you call it might be bringing in $60k per month profit, with our overheads what they are it simply isnt sustainable and at £210k per month the cash cow is little more than a suppliment towards overheads. You are right that to get a product going takes time, however its worth noting I am not the one who claimed this venture would be profitable by years end, the company as you righly said previously, are the ones who knows whats happening and they are the ones that stated this. But after 6 months of retail we are in less than 90 stores which is still poor and even it this will take longer, at what point do you consider it a failure? how else do you measure the success of it than by the income it generates? this for me is the issue, its great to have hopes that it will succeed but the facts provided today state the business is not generating anything, not only is it still not profitable as they stated, it isnt even self sustaining which they anticipated would be within a few months of starting the venture which was months ago.
you mentioned the christmas sales have not been included in the equation which is 30% of the revenue so far but they have infact been included if you check the RNS it states on 2 occassions
"with revenue in the past 30 days being equivalent to around one third of total CBD revenue generated to date." past 30 days from today which is the christmas period which as i said previously, in retail a boost at christmas is par for the course.
also to confirm this later in the RNS it states
"Revenue in the year to date is £1.27 million from the natural resources division and £65,000 from the CBD division." the key words being, year to date. so if you actually took over the last 30 days revenue from this which accounts for 30% of revenue to date would mean up to mid-end November we generated around £45k revenue the early October update put revenue at £36k which means they generated a further £9k revenue over a 7 week period so i think £10k per month estimate is a more than fair assessment at present.
This is why i consider the news to be poor from the RNS, as it has not met the expectations sat out previously. In addition to this the overheads are unsustainable with the revenue streams we have. I do not pay much attention to the aspirational and 'potential' points mentioned in RNS's because they dont actually give you anything f
Jbatch - Sorry, not biting you seem to want to also steer this into a back and forth, Im only interested in discussing the company. Quite what the purpose of multiple IDs would serve is beyond me, regardless I disagree with the RNS being positive.
The RNS is only positive if you look at what they hope to achieve and their aspirations, if we stick to the facts of what they have actually achieved then it is poor. With any company the bottom line is the only thing that matters, and this company is still losing money on a monthly basis with dwindling cash. We have thrown all our resources at a venture that accounts for approx 3% of our revenue. and for the revenue it is bringing in the overheads are crippling.
Time and time again the company has had cash or considerable income and had to watch it all sucked away in the high overheads. How can any shareholder or future investor here or in the US realistically expect a return on their investment when any revenue generated is swallowed up by overheads? without HNR we are bringing in revenue of £10,000 with outgoings of £210,000 per month. Unless things improve there will be a placing again not to fund the business we have in the form of Zoetic, but just to pay the salaries of those that have zero experience with the direction the company has moved in.
Sadly and ironicly whilst the cost cutting at HNR has now allowed it to be profitable on its own which should be fantastic news, the overheads tied to Zoetic are still dragging us into the red in a big way every month swallowing up any profit and then some. If zoetic had performed like the company first announced months ago of being profitable by now then that, tied with the profitable HNR assets, would have been fantastic news for shareholders and the company going forward. But Zoetic is dragging the company down, and they are throwing everything they have at it at this point with an 'all eggs in one basket' mentality. Which for a company with a track record of failure in both delivery and profitability is quite worrying.
For those that believe things are looking good and this was a good update, where exactly is the money coming from to keep the company running over the next 6 months? unless revenue improves drastically from the Zoetic arm, they we will need a placing or the company will go bust. Alternatively they could sell the HNR asset but then they have no revenue at all to speak of with the same overheads which will just provide a stay of execution for the company. To pin the entire future of the company on being able to sell seeds 6 months from now considering the money the company has been provided to date does not represent a success. The poor store uptake and revenue represents a failure of the project as a retail venture. even if you were to say it will improve which is quite possible, how long before it generates enough to start meeting overheads? will it ever? what will fund the company until then?
andy216 - You are cut from the same cloth as other rampers on here, only rather than talk about the aspirations of the company in light of poor performance, you instead resort to personal attacks or question the motives on those that would paint Zoetic in anything but a positive light.
However in light of you raising the issue of what you post i will add my 2 cents, looking at your posting history just from your last 40 posts alone to date, you do not seem to talk about Zoetic at all, in fact it seems to be nothing but snide remarks or questioning peoples motives. You actually do not add any value to any discussion on this share at all, not one single post, in your last 40 on the Zoetic board, discuss Zoetics RNS's or announcements or make any real contribution at all.
Quite frankly, having looked back I have now come to the conclusion that you seem to be nothing but a troll, with no contribution to add or opinion to offer or anything that could be deemed thought provoking in any way. So i will refrain from taking any more notice of your childish ramblings. However i do hope you have a nice christmas.
andy216 - typical ramper, unable to discuss the facts of where we are so resorts to accusations of if they are invested or not or personal attacks. If you are positive then you are in agreement, if negative you must not be invested to say such a thing and therefor have no place commenting on here. If that is how you see it then how can you possibly have a fair and balanced discussion on a share if the only ones allowed to voice an opinion are the ones who are invested which infers some form of bias? Regardless, i shall let you infer what you like, Id rather discuss the RNS and the companies performance to date with those invested, considering to invest or not invested alike.
Al87 - MrNation has proven himself since day one to be nothing more than a ramper, he is even the person who made the claim of dividend by the end of Q1, which only goes to show why anything he says should be disregarded. If revenue from Zoetic was good and store numbers well up i would say things are off to a good start, but these results are dismal, for NT to even insinuate revenue at present being modest is a gross understatement.
to put into perspective just how poor this is, your local shop probably has a higher revenue than Zoetic right now excluding HNR assets, and I dont see the staff at your local having overheads of £210,000 per month and valuing his shop at £9 million.
Apologies, my last response was to lloydiee69 and his post of all eggs in one basket.
as are Zoetics, they just confirmed that no resources to be allocated to HNR whatsoever and instead the full focus of resources on Zoetic, which has generated £65,000 to date. If you take away HNR assets, whats a company generating £65,000 in 6 month with £2.5 million a year overheads really worth? right now it has a market cap of £9 million its no wonder US investors are not interested. Its a high price for a share that is miles away from being profitable with a track record of never being profitable, with an inability to see a project through to success if it is even deliverable to start with, they have failed time and time again. Rampers will tell you of the future aspirations of the company and whats to look forward to but thats because to look at the current situation and looking backwards tells you nothing good. Those currently talking of increased revenue also need to realise its nearly all from HNR. Zoetic, which is the sole focus of the company (hell they even changed the company name/Ticker) has produced only £0.03 million of that £1.15 million revenue. Year to date Revenue from HNR assets is £1.27 million, Revenue from Zoetic - or CBD division, call it what you will - is £0.07 million rounded up.
I am somewhat pleased that they gave more update beyond just the information we already knew since October and gave us information up to current date. I will also say that whilst the RNS did contain jam tomorrow and that fatal word we see all to often in a HNR/Zoetic RNS 'potentially' at least there was a slimmer of hope with NT as he was at least aknowledging some home truths that the rampers on here dont like to, which is that what matters most is what this venture is bringing in, in the form of revenue. Unfortunately for me this is where the positivity ends.
As I mentioned previously regarding dividend talk, it was laughable, as were the calculations of revenue based on sales order numbers which was also just as comical. We now see the reality of where things currently stand. Let us not forget that back when this idea was first sold to us, they expected the Zoetic project to me self funding months ago and profitable by end of year, well we are now at christmas and to date they have generated £65,000, nearly all of our revenue is still coming from HNR assets, it is no wonder they now would like to keep them as they are pretty much the only thing stopping this company running out of money in no time at all. It is the same with all the product lines, it is simply to make use of the as i expected stockpiles of what they are producing that they cant shift.
They do mention that the last 30 days has done a lot better than previous months for Zoertic sales but firstly, thats still negligable revenue at this point and secondly, its retail at christmas, thats pretty much par for the course. As they now mention we are down to 1-2 people covering the HNR Assets to make it proffitable but the pro forma costs havent changed, so if you exclude HNR income we are pretty much looking down the barrel of £210,000 per month expenses with Zoetic bringing in on average £10k per month its simply lauaghable to assign any value to this company outside the HNR interests. so far if you take into account the £1.5 million start up and the loan drawn down of $500,000 and expenses due to staff and the companies BOD/CEO salaries to say we have earned £65,000 is comical, that is an incredibly poor return on investment.
As they state, they remain 'cash consuming' which is a fancy way of saying haemorrhaging money some rough maths tells us already that unless the profitabilty of HNR assets is quite considerable then we are looking at the begging bowl coming out in the form of a placing. id say before end of year results in 6 months we will be out of cash, these overheads with this revenue is simply unsustainable. Rampers can talk about product lines all they want, what matters as NT himself even states is the revenue, and its simply not there. jam tomorrow of opportunities ahead means nothing, we were told this in april and look what we have.
Holy moly BH you are correct what am I talking about! Apologies, this update will pretty much cover what we were told in the October update along with income from HNR oil production and gas sales which are available each month to figure revenue anyway. so unless the team are pulling our leg and costs are as they said recently in line with what they predicted there elrrslly isn’t anything new to be seen from this update unless I am wrong? The only thing I can hope is that they provide some figures and store numbers we now have since the 30th sept to gauge progress made and what sort of expectations we should have.
Thank you for pointing that out though BH although I am now somewhat deflated for the Monday RNS!
Looking forward to the update personally, it will be interesting to see how the sales have gone for the first 6 months, if the sales and store numbers are good it will be a promising start into the new year with the addition of other revenue streams and if this is break even that is perfect at this point as the additional revenue from HNR assets (prior to selling them) as well in the future would be on the profit making side as overheads would be covered.
On the flip side to that, if the figures are poor i certainly wont be glossing over them with rose tinted glasses. I can already predict however if the numbers are poor the house rampers will be making excuses for them and banging on about us still having seeds a.k.a jam tomorrow to look forward to for income despite the failure of the retail which would only go to prove why people should take no notice of them. For me the figures will be telling as to how successful this venture will be as it was expected to be break even by the update point and profitable by the end of this year and we have heard no change to that statement since.
To sum up my feelings before the update would be to simply say i hope for the best but am prepared for the worst so let us hope for a nice christmas bonus in the form of financials from the HNR/Zoetic team.
This isn’t too surprising for myself, I have said for a while there has been no new developments to warrant driving the sp up despite what rampers have been saying. The recent rise was those piling in before the OTC listing to make a quick buck then away they went again so it can revert to business as usual. There was a chance to underpin the share price rise however with NTs last update but he provided no solid numbers with regards to revenue or sales numbers which might be interpreted as they are quite poor but until the financial update in a month it’s all a bit of a gamble, but if it is bad then expect rampers to start banging on about the jam tomorrow seeds that will make us all rich.
From the recent Update RNS i was excited to read it in the hope of getting some solid numbers on sales and stores as part of the update to give me a better idea of if this is starting to produce and heading in the right direction so i was quite disappointed to find none of that information was in there. It's good news to say the chewables have gone better on a volume basis than other products and sold well but without adding any numbers to it its quite an empty statement you mention volume basis yet dont provide a figure just comes across as vague and maybe on the low side. More equipment is also a good sign if the reason is for added production of something we are selling really well and not just a way to manufacture all the other product lines we are trying to get out the door and onto shelves without crippling the production of the products we are already producing if these distributors decide to stock the products.
For me the update was quite vague and there was lots of 'potentially' and 'potential' and talk of all these other product lines without any update on what we have sold of there brands they touted so far. It rings reminiscent of the times under the HNR flag where we just from one project to the next with talk of potential with nothing ever delivering. Now knowing its just a trial with a few of the distribution partners of mrcheckout but management are 'optimistic about the outcome' is certainly not as amazing or reassuring as first thought when announced several months ago.
"In light of this potential high demand, Zoetic has reviewed its manufacturing capability. If both of these distributors proceed as expected then demand may exceed the Company's existing manufacturing capacity." expected, potential, may, you get the idea. Maybe its just because ive been around HNR too long but im tired of the jam tomorrow and possibilities, i want to start seeing some actual credible numbers to back up what they are doing and not just the sales pitch.
I was hoping this update would provide more clarity but instead its just vague statements that you cant really interpret anything from, no store numbers update, no update on actual sales numbers or revenue just ambition, potential, may and optimisms. We will have a clearer picture a month from now with the half yearly statement which i would like to show some strong revenue figures for this venture considering its meant to be profitable by now based on their projections several months ago for break even and profit time frames, we can also get an idea if we are now self sufficient within the zoetic side of the company or if we are eating into capital and need the begging bowl to come out. In either case, we will know more in a month.
MrNation - conservative numbers? really? 500k per month on chill/zoe products, in the first 3 months it took £36,000 revenue whilst it is expected to be better with new tie ups like mrcheckout and it being christmas (no idea if this is the best time for products like this or in the new year for health reasons such as with gym membership uptake) to even suggest the numbers you are is over the top to put it mildly. Ah and then there is the jam tomorrow seeds, which just as with the retail side you have no idea what the success of it will be.
Getting some decent sales volume on products and bringing in anything on the seeds would be a great start and a good foundation to build on but to suggest your numbers are conservative at this point is just plain ridiculous. Your trying to convince people a new entry into the market with a start up of 1.5 million without any brand awareness outside of the company and very little influence is going to be generating circa 1.5 million a month and can start paying dividends less than 6 months from now? fantasy land.
if i was to even entertain the possibility that that could happen, why the hell would i want the company giving me a dividend at this point anyway? if things really took off as well as that i would be expecting any BOD or CEO worth anything to be reinvesting that money to expand acreage and production. I know never say never is a well know phrase, but dividend Q2 2020 isn't going to happen, no chance.
andy - if you say so, but as you say that, i am going to assume that you are, and as someone invested, along with other heavily invested posters on here, you are clearly impartial and have no reason not to point out anything that might be a detriment to that investment right? but if people on here will post nonsense about major retail stores and dividends then i think its right to call our the blatant lies. In either case without an update, rampers talk of aspirations for sales has no more basis for truth than me stating they have sold nothing- which i haven't stated-. The only difference is i am using the trading update and what we know to come to that conclusion and we have some on here using things like sales order numbers to come to theirs. make of that what you will.
as i said, since trading update everything is based purely on hope and speculation from those such as yourself, the dividend and major retailers on the other hand is just complete nonsense.
if i am wrong, please provide me with an update on how well our sales are going and the revenue they are bringing in because i don't have that info since the latest update unless i overlooked something. Despite what you might think, i do actually want this to be a success but there is nothing as of yet to support it, but don't trust me i'm just the christmas grinch out to get your shares right?
There really hasn't been anything new happen since the last update other than the OTC listing. Yet on here we have rampers talking of the millions of seeds we will sell for 100% certainty as well as 'in the know' people claiming they have been told of major retailers that will stock our product, which is complete fabrication. Rampers even claimed we would fly on the OTC listing but based on what exactly? did you assume the OTC investors were complete morons? just because other companies in the sector are being valued massively did not mean this company will be, any investor with an ounce of common sense would at the least look at the financials and the latest trading update and it isn't exactly shout from the rooftops mindblowing so why would they? it's more rose tinted glasses from the heavily invested. Personally im looking forward to an update since mrcheckout on store numbers and overall sales revenue and if bad im fully expecting NT and co to tell us about how excited they are for the potential of the seeds along with all the rampers getting behind it for the next jam tomorrow. I hope to see revenue in excess of £1,000,000 come early next year for Zoetic as some indication this isnt just another dismal failure from the BOD and management that are HNR in all but name.
I am also curious as to an update on the sale of our HNR assets as to what we can expect for them based on interest. As for all we know right now, its the sale of the Oil and Gas from these assets thats offsetting our huge overheads from eating away all our capital within a few months.
As gallini rightly said, until a new update we have no idea of sales figures. Unless we get it in an RNS, to suggest the sales order number is total sales and then infer revenue is speculative at best.
@andy - "The management team have previously operated that facility, bringing with them all the skills and abilities for Zoetic Organics to commence operations immediately." and we incentivized them with warrants also. if it helps look back to the march 19th RNS.
@PIface- There are tons of brands. I raised this point on the board not long ago. the markets saturated with everyone jumping on the bandwagon. trying to establish a brand amongth this with limited resources when already late to the party is tough. What doesn't help matters is the constant ramping on here, i have seen people like OSG banging on about CBD companies on the OTC listed int he hundreds of millions so once there we will fly but its just ridiculous assumptions. thats no different than claiming the same for HNR and comparing us to haliburton or BP several years ago. We are even seen the next wave of rampers claiming possible dividends by Q2 2020 its laughable.
the team running the show for us formerly DIstrict 8 management team were offered the chance to buy our gas and do this for themselves and they turned it down and we ended up hiring them and trying to do this ourselves. if it was such a shoo-in why did they turn the offer down? realistically we are a small company with very limited resources and available cash trying to push a brand that outside of HNR/Zoetic associated companies and shareholders nobody even know exists. I believe some new investors here got swept up in the rampathon pre OTC listing but reality is now setting in for some with others locking in those profits and bailing. the first few months of Zoetic sales amounted to £36,000 revenue, thats revenue not profit since then we have no update on sales but we are supposed to be valued at millions? again, laughable. most of this companies value and income right now is tied to HNR once that's gone we will be hemorrhaging money circa £2.5 million a year unless Zoetic starts to gain traction and bring in the profits and from what we know so far im not seeing this. Ill let the rampers keep shouting me down but most of what they discuss going forward is based on pure hope without any evidence to support it.