Stephan Bernstein, CEO of GreenRoc, details the PFS results for the new graphite processing plant. Watch the video here.
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You're right about the consultancy fees testpack, I shouldn't have included that because as you say, that comes to PHE and not the operator or the SPV. But the SPV will get gate fees because the end-of-life plastic would otherwise have to go to landfill, and that would involve transport and landfill tax for the waste management company to pay.
And regards shredding the plastic, I believe that plastic shredding equipment will be part of the DMG installation, so the plastic will be shredded on site before entering the chamber.
Pitlick. Your reply to my post;
'Testpack as I pointed out in my post yesterday the DMG is not a one trick pony, and you don't seem to be factoring into your calculations the income that will be received from the gate fees for the waste plastic feedstock, the income from the sale of electricity, the income from the sale of heat, the income from the sale of char, and the income from consultancy.'
Gate fees? The plastic has to be sorted, recyclable and waste, it has to be shredded.. Income from sale of electricity and heat only happens if you do not reform all the syngas to H2. You can have a mix, and use some of the syngad for power and heat, but at the cost of less H2. I am talking about PHE's model of selling DMG and having annual income from License fees. So how does the owner and operator gat consultancy fees, or are you saying PHE should build and operate DMG's. ?
Testpack as I pointed out in my post yesterday the DMG is not a one trick pony, and you don't seem to be factoring into your calculations the income that will be received from the gate fees for the waste plastic feedstock, the income from the sale of electricity, the income from the sale of heat, the income from the sale of char, and the income from consultancy.
Even if the cost is anywhere near your estimate, there is still profit to be had as the retail price at the "pump" is about £10 per kg at present, and that roughly equates with the price of diesel regarding energy content.
I'm sure that PHE's management and accountants will have done very precise calculations and forecasts, as they will have more accurate cost figures available to them than any of us have.
Anomoly is still confused. His offering on H2 cost from DMG;
. Far away from a couple of quid industry want's to pay for Hydrogen per kilo. Talking with first Dave Ryan some time ago and recently Howard, the base cost for Hydrogen from DMG is in the region of £1.50 taking into account the cost of plant, depreciation, salary etc' Really confused.
To begin with, let us assume the DMG plant has an H2 facility ( cost ?), and is contracted to pay EML £1/2M pa. At 2000kg/d, and 48 week operation at 7 day week, total H2 production 672k Kg pa. that is a cost /Kg of H2 of about 75p. Salaries for a plant, with Engineers for a 3 shift system , plus ancillary staff, guestimate £1.2M, that's about £1.60 /Kg. The plant needs energy supply. Does the plant have a shredder for plastic, or does it buy shredded plastic. Cost of plant, with H2 facility, £30M ( PHE may disagree, but tell me the figure). Amortised over 20 years, with interest, £1.7M pa. or about £2.50 /Kg. Total so far £4.85 p Kg. I'm sure there will be other offerings to counter this 'back of a fag packet' appraisal.
I suppose it depends how much you can get paid for your hydrogen! I also think that some of the off-peak, and hence cheaper, renewable electricity may be used to generate hydrogen which may then be used to fuel EVs, or to help balance the grid by generating electricity during peak periods, or even to create ammonia. At the end of the day, the “market” will have to adjust up or down as we move away from fossil fuels.
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Interestingly, Nel Hydrogen (Norway) have announced that their A Series features a cell stack power consumption as low as 3.8 kWh/Nm3 of hydrogen gas produced. That works out at 46.3 kWh per kg of hydrogen produced, so that's lower than the numbers mentioned previously in this thread.
Incidentally, 1 kg of hydrogen contains approx. the same amount of energy as a gallon of diesel. And a gallon of diesel (at current price of about £2.00 per litre) costs about £9.00. I believe that hydrogen for EVs at the "pump" costs about £10 per kg.
It is difficult to do a direct comparison between the production of hydrogen from the DMG and production of hydrogen from renewable electricity using electrolysis, because the DMG is not just producing hydrogen, it is a multi faceted plant. The DMG will earn revenue from gate fees for the waste feedstock, from sale of electricity, perhaps sale of some syngas, possibly sale of heat, sale of char, in addition to sale of hydrogen. So how much it will cost to produce hydrogen by DMG is a complex question.
But it would be interesting to know how much renewable electricity would be required by an electrolysis plant to produce the equivalent amount of hydrogen to the DMG i.e. 2 tons per day. The internet gives a range of estimates for this from 48kwh to 55 kwh to produce 1 kg of hydrogen. Based on 48 kwh per 1 kg of hydrogen that would require a total of 96 MWh to produce 2T of hydrogen per day. The next question would be how much would 96 KWh cost a for company such as ITM, and I don’t have the answer to that.
Confused, yes, anomoly is with his calculations of electrical energy required for electrolysis. he does not understand the industry. Various companies have price targets for H2 produced from electrolysis. About $1kg.. No one has mentioned a price for H2 from DMG. There are already electrolysis plants under construction using renewable energy. I asked a simple question to mjallen a week or so ago, how many buses and HGV's does he envisage fuelling up at DMG's.? No response. Clueless for a self proclaimed 'expert'. Anyone here tell me a guestimate of the cost of H2 produced from DMG?I await for the nil replies. lol. Sell DMG as the method to convert waste plastic into syngas, therefore energy witha small C footprint cf to incineration..
Already under way PT in Sunderland but not using a DMG plant unfortunately
https://www.portofsunderland.org.uk/news/port-welcome-uks-greenest-waste-tyre-recycling-plant
Perhaps the government should be mandating that when existing incinerators reach the end of their life they ought to be replace by DMG units!
And also, beyond plastic, there are mountains of tyres that need to be dealt with, instead of burning them or shredding and landfilling.
Dr A,
I'm a long term holder. A new insight for me is that the "PHE is turning plastics into hydrogen" idea has turned very much into "PHE is turning SOME plastics into hydrogen" - and the plastics of interest to PHE are the ones left over after the recycling crowd have done their bit. So a big chunk of the dream is being swallowed by others. How big is the remaining chunk, and of how great an urgency is it for governments to be anxious to use it to avoid landfill? And how significant is it as a source of hydrogen, or is it only one of many?
In these statements HUI appear to be quite deliberately distancing themselves from PHE ( and vice versa) which suggests that relationships may not be great? Any thoughts?
Go somewhere else and moan no ones interested in your spiel.
Does appear HUI lifestyle to create non specifics the exact opposite any finance house demands. Hence, they run around asking PIs for the cash.
Where is Hungarian project or Bulgaria? Nothing about funding Ireland? Greece we haven’t seen a word on?
Consultants not one have they signed a contract they would have announced you all know HUI, never pass up an opportunity to Tweet?
Gravy train appears to have sucked up a million quid, Ireland took 384 thousand and didn’t they say Ireland investment were halve a million? Next be adjusting their numbers to explain it’s all local currency?
Poland plant is moving along (not).
Will PHE get royalties from this????
.@HydrogenUtopia is working in collaboration with Electron Technologies BV the Netherlands on a unique system for converting waste plastics to hydrogen. bit.ly/3NsO5Gz
https://twitter.com/aquisstockex/status/1542107820673343488?s=21&t=QaZewj5sohZLTCFKthdqOQ