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Great discussion here all.
So wish the leading health journos were as clued up :)
Perhaps this wee is the week...
Hi Ray,
Thank you for your in depth response, I appreciate it.
You are right Lindy certainly is highly knowledgeable and many of the articles I read show that she is definitely ahead of the game.
ATB
Prof. Ugur Sahin, CEO and Co-Founder of BioNTech added: “This financing round is a significant milestone that recognizes our scientific and initial clinical track record to date. With our ongoing focus on bringing together transformative technologies, it is exciting to have the support from high-technology investors who see the accelerating convergence of biology with bioinformatics, robotics and artificial intelligence as an opportunity to develop more precise, efficacious and cost-effective individualized immunotherapies.”
The funding follows the Series A financing of USD 270 million announced in January 2018, led by Redmile Group. The previous financings have enabled BioNTech to advance a pipeline of seven product candidates in eight ongoing clinical trials, to establish a second GMP manufacturing license for production of its individualized neoantigen specific immunotherapies and to expand its antibody platform, most recently, through the acquisition of a Phase I/IIa program against pancreatic cancer from MabVax Therapeutics Inc. In conjunction with the MabVax Therapeutics acquisition of assets, the company has also recently established its US research and development facility in San Diego, California.
Don’t forget early investment July 2019 by r mile group into Biontech
https://www.life-sciences-germany.com/index-term/biontech-redmile-group-investment-nasdaq-bntx-mrna-technology-2001-121283.html
Cleaner nice link - reads like the piece I saw earlier. Thanks.
Ray an interesting observation about Prof Lindy and 'her' T-cells.
I wonder what will, (rather than might), come out of all this, one day.
Afternoon CW,
Some really good links and totally understand why the logic of a potential partnership between Bion Tech and SCLP but their are extremely big strategic considerations that will weigh very heavy in the equation.
Sales of the mRNA Vaccine is likely to total $70bn in 2921 and 2022 plus then add in all the extra mRNA Covid variants plus the potential Flu and RSV Vaccines that Pfizer currently has in development.
There are collaborations and partnerships throughout pharma for very good reasons but signing a deal with SCLP based on a phase 1 trial with limited numbers for a Universal Covid Vax when themselves and Pfizer see mRNA as their flagship Vax platform moving forward risks that current partnership if they do a deal with SCLP so I personally just can’t see it happening when so much is at stake for Bion Tech in their current Pfizer deal.
Hi Johnny
Lindy may well may know more about T Cells than many of the scientists employed by big pharma.
It's not just the fact that that Immunobody activates T cells. The dual presentation of the vaccine to the dendritic cells is what gives it its power.
1 The activated T Cells have higher than normal avidity
2 Clonal expansion is stronger
3 The is strong evidence from the SCIB1 clinical trial and also mice experiments with SCIB2 that a strong memory response is created.
Ultimately, it this this strong memory response that may give Covidity a long lasting effect.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z
From the abstract
"Thus, infection with betacoronaviruses induces multi-specific and long-lasting T cell immunity against the structural N protein. Understanding how pre-existing N- and ORF1-specific T cells that are present in the general population affect the susceptibility to and pathogenesis of SARS-CoV-2 infection is important for the management of the current COVID-19 pandemic."
This article was dated June 2020.
Lindy's decision to target the N protein predates this article by almost 2 months.
https://www.lse.co.uk/rns/SCLP/scancell-development-of-vaccine-against-covid-19-n4dr22ko1qptgp6.html
"Scancell's DNA vaccine will target the SARS-CoV-2 nucleocapsid (N) protein and the key receptor-binding domain of the spike (S) protein to generate both T cell responses and VNAbs against the SARS-CoV-2 virus. The N protein is highly conserved amongst coronaviruses; therefore, this new vaccine has the potential to generate protection not only against SARS-CoV-2, but also against new strains of coronavirus that may arise in the future."
please see below inrelkation to the quote from Ivy "Covid Vax rather than Bion Tech who already has the market leader."
from Bloomberg :
the factory can still change to DNA its got time
"Scientists fear the omicron shots coming this fall won’t be much better at keeping people from getting Covid-19 than what’s come before. That’s pushing drugmakers to start working on next-generation vaccines that don’t have to be updated that often, if at all."
ByMadison Muller, Riley Griffin, and Fiona Rutherford
10 August 2022, 19:05 BST
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Scientists fear the omicron shots coming this fall won’t be much better at keeping people from getting Covid-19 than what’s come before. That’s pushing drugmakers to start working on next-generation vaccines that don’t have to be updated that often, if at all.
Testing shows that omicron-specific vaccines under development at Moderna Inc. and the partnership of Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE will be “little or no better” than the currently available boosters, according to John Moore, a professor of microbiology and immunology at Weill Cornell Medical College.
Hi TF- yes thanks to Cleanerworld for posting the manu link but it does specify the whole plant is based around mRNA and that is where Bion Tech see their future in developing the platform for other infectious diseases and wider applications like oncology.
Looking at the timings of Approval 3/1/20 and first Vax production Feb 21 after purchasing site from Novartis in September 20 I think a lot of initial,plan was to use Pfizer Belgium facilities and then add capacity which Bion Tech have done.
But the mRNA is Bion Tech lead programme so unlikely to want to switch focus to a DNA platform imo.
Even though DNA is a relatively easy and cheap Vax to manu finding suitable facilities will be an issue as many are committed to Covid/Flu/RSV etc but until we have p1 results then will have to wait and see but agree with Bermuda any partner likely to be someone who needs a Covid Vax rather than Bion Tech who already has the market leader.
But if results are stellar then that opens up the field.
No Ruck. I wasn't getting 'carried away'. Your words.
Ray,
Your 12.47 “It might be that T Cell avidity is the key.”
The following item backs your comment up:-
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220811/Experts-urge-FDA-to-include-T-cell-responses-when-evaluating-COVID-vaccines.aspx
“Consistent with this perspective, 70 investigators signed a letter to the FDA on April 21, 2022, encouraging the inclusion of T cell responses in addition to antibody titers for the evaluation of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines in humans.”
TF,
I think you (and a few others) are making too much of my comment...
"It would be good to clarify the exact nature of any relationship if any before getting too carried away."
My only motivation was to establish the facts. Following that, whether you, I or anyone wants to get carried away or cease getting carried away is entirely their own choice.
If you listen to the RG interview there are plenty of things still applicable, foe example WHY BioNTech chose to partner with Scancell. These reasons still apply but also would apply to partnering with any other big pharma.
Moonparty , Seems so. Sadly reminds me of SCIP1 years ago, after Its success. Not taken up by any Pharma.
Hoping that history doesn't repeat Itself. IMO.
Bermuda,
I have to agree with your analysis. The only known tie up between Scancell and BioNtech has been the grand challenge and the Moditope/TCR research. We have no recent evidence to suggest these are still on-going but no concrete evidence that they have been officially terminated.
There has been no suggestion that there is a tie up on Covidity. I think the approaches are so different it would be difficult to find synergy but I am not an immunologist so couldn't say for sure.
RG in the 2018 proactive interview about the BioNTech collaboration that Lindy and Ugur Sahin got along very well. This was before Sahin became internationally famous but I'm sure they chat now again whether or not there is any formal "collaboration" taking place. So if things on the Modi/TCR changed then I'm sure BioNtech would know about it.
I agree with Bermuda.
Biontech have been trumpeting the cause concerning mRNA vaccines for ages now. They are hardly likely to switch to DNA.
mRNA being, based on production of whole proteins, is maybe simply not flexible enough to provide a universal Covid19 vaccine.
The Scancell approach of targeting specific epitopes, some of which are likely to be conserved across future mutations is possibly a better approach.
If you couple this with the Immunobody approach that gives the T Cells of high avidity, which is maybe even further enhanced by Avidimab then you have a very promising approach. Remember also that the approach has already been shown to be successful against Melanoma.
It might be that T Cell avidity is the key.
It also highlights how little competition there is for covidity as a universal vaccine.
Please Scancell can we have an update!
Thanks Bermuda. Fairly put but if BioNTech can observe that there is better science and a better potential vax product available, I am quite certain that it is a possibility that they, or any other Company for that matter, might consider changing strategy IF the advantages of doing so were obvious enough. I'd also think Pfizer might jump with them IF the data was good enough.
The stakes for a possibly more universal Covid vax are the very highest. I'm not getting carried away (Ruck), but it is a possibility.
I enjoyed your comments about how much the Covidity research has helped the wider Scancell cause.
ATB
Yes I did - intriguing and looking forward to finding out exactly what they're developing when they're in a positiion to go public.
What I find most interesting is that the current Biontech / Pfizer offering is not dynamic enough moving forward . The gravy booster train is stuck in the station . Waiting for the next generation vaccine . Scancell are in the clinic already . Bermuda did you read the Bloomberg post .
Ruck - interesting, I had missed that.
I understood that Scancell hadn't been able to create suitable Modi1 TCRs in the lab, but were hopeful that when the Modi1 trial was underway they may be more successful when using blood from vaccinated patients. Given that the collaboration with BioNTech gave them an exlusive option to license Modi1 TCRs, it's seems perfectly sensible that the agreement wasn't open ended and just allowed to run ad infinitum. I'm sure if/when Scancell do produce promising candidates then they'll resume discussions with BioNTech and I'm equally sure that BioNTech will be keeping a watching eye on how Modi1 performs in the clinic.
As for Covidity, I know it won't be a popular opinion here, but I can't see any involvement from BioNTech - it simply doesn't fit in with their strategy. BioNTech is an mRNA pioneer, it's the very essence of the Company. Of course I may be wrong but I just don't see why they would deviate from that path and switch to a DNA vaccine. The most likely candidate for a partner for Covidity (assuming positive trial results) is one of the big biotechs or perhaps smaller pharmas who have missed the boat with 1st/2nd generation covid vaccines and are looking for a vaccine platform that can be quickly adapted to also target other infectious diseases.
If Covidity went no further, it will still have been hugely beneficial to Scancell and their shareholders. ImmunoBody comes out the other side with an extended patent life, a new improved delivery method and enhanced efficacy (assuming successful results) and Avidimab gets its first in human trial - all achieved through non-dilutive funding. Moreover, covid has triggered a resurgence in the field of vaccines and interest in cancer vaccines.
All IMO
Ruck - I thought I had raised the point quietly enough. I'm not getting 'carried away' ! But I hadn't noticed TD describing BioNTech as a 'prior collaborator' and that's interesting and maybe a little disappointing.
Ivy thanks - Cleaner's link shows that BioNTech do some manufacturing. In their relationship with Pfizer, I'd be surprised if BioNTech were not at least controlling the manufacture as part of their deal simply because BioNTech are the masters of the science for that vax.
We'll see - news coming ! But so is Christmas . . . . .
A Google search of 'scancell biontech' yields result showing an association
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=scancell+biontech&source=hp&ei=vM74YpubNsKT8gLPs4fYBQ&oq=scancell+biontech&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBADMgYIABAeEBYyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQoAE6CAgAEI8BEOoCOggILhCxAxCDAToRCC4QgAQQsQMQgwEQxwEQ0QM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOg4ILhCABBCxAxDHARDRAzoICAAQgAQQsQM6BQgAEIAEOgsILhCxAxCDARDUAjoICAAQsQMQgwE6CwguEIAEELEDEIMBOggILhCABBCxAzoFCC4QgAQ6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBEK8BOgoIABCABBBGEPoBOgsILhCABBDHARDRAzoKCAAQHhAPEBYQCjoICAAQHhAPEBY6BQgAEIYDOgcIIRCgARAKUMQIWIA9YO9GaAFwAHgAgAG_AYgB2Q6SAQQ3LjEwmAEAoAEBsAEP&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp
The association can imo be called 'Well known' on this board, but as usual the extent and activity relating to it is anyone's guess, so please don't jump down my throat and try to suggest my post implies anything imminent or bolted on re Biontech. PRIOR collaborations would be covered by the Grand Challenge project blueprint, but again it depends how a poster wants to interpret PRIOR. Former and now defunct, or previously engaged upon and out of the limelight? I don't think the words 'very reasonable grounds for optimism that such a tie-up is a realistic possibility' are too much in the forbidden realm of happy clappy mad ramper buy buy buy eight quid a share though.
Ratty,
"The link between Scancell and Biontech is well known"
Well it was well reported in 2018 and so I guess at the time "well known"
But why have there been no updates since then? The area of interest was Moditope so it may be that progress is dependent on trial data, who knows?
But why do TD describe BioNtech as a "competitor" and "PRIOR collaborator" (capitals added). Prior suggests that the collobaration ended at some point. If it has, then it wasn't reported. This then puts into question other collaborations - are these active, dormant or terminated. It would be good to know these things.
So ratty, if you could address any of the questions sensibly it would be appreciated.
Hi TF/RR,
As you say still a few unanswered questions like what is exact nature of Bion Tech/SCLP which was based in TCRs but we know personal relationships is good.
I remember RG telling me that whilst major pharma readily understood DNA platforms they did not not always comprehend the complexity of newer approaches like Moditope so what we don’t know how what the reverse is ie Bion Tech familiarity and acceptance of DNA Platforms.
We know that SCLP developed Covidity completely seperately to any input from Bion Tech.We also know that the Bion Tech/Pfizer arrangement was a much wider potential co- operation than Covid 19 Vax.It was a way of testing mRNA technology in an infectious disease setting and getting Approval hence generating huge amounts of data and knowledge primarily for Pfizer.In fact at one stage the fact was that Pfizer would abandon Bion Tech and just develop the platforms themselves,something that seems to have changed.
Also don’t forget the need for the collaboration.
Pfizer needed Bion Tech to provide the creativity to develop the Vaccine and then Pfizer would provide the manu,distribution etc to complete the process.
The situation with SCLP is entirely different as it is an SCLP Vax and they have done all the science and creativity in developing Vax so the type of partner they need is someone who can manu the Vax which is very specialised and then use their existing logistics set up to distribute the Vax and finance through the regulatory process.
I really don’t think that is Bion Techs game and not even sure if they have Vax manu facilities.Most manu capacity is already fixed and set up years ahead and production is very specialised and long lead times.
So whilst I understand all the logic of a universal Covid Vax rather than simply adding a valency for a new variant this is about so much more than the science and the choice of a partner is limited.