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Hasiba, sorry it’s me again. I just read Berm’s original message in the thread and your last reply. Obviously the T cells don’t go “into the cells” to do the clean up. I just feel the need to reply because high avidity T cells is what our offering is all about.
Once one receives the vaccine and our cells produce the antigens (S- and N- proteins or their fragment) and present them on the surface, T helper cells detect and raise the alarm so that the whole immune system work in concert after that. When a vaccinated cell dies, it’ll trigger a cascade — APC, T- and B- acting in concert. The neutralising antibodies then do the clearing up/prevent other cells from being infected. Whether this is magic/science it’s at the crux of it.
I know you’re looking for the clinical correlation but surely that’s just a matter of time. But I’m also trying to look at it in reverse — when people stopped getting fatigue / relapsing symptoms especially following the vaccine, what’s happening inside them. More antibody studies are being published and we can look at the specific cohorts.
Anyway, if you don’t find this useful, I hope others will! Thanks Berm for starting the discussion and I agree with others — one of our most consistent and well-respected poster here!
Violin....yes could be either.
Though you must have had a CT scan and pulmonary function tests at the time of your respiratory symptoms and if it was repeated afterwards to monitor the progress then after your cough disappeared to confirm the relationship between coincidence or vaccine related ,and then needs far more patients to do the same...of course this is from clinical point of view but not necessarily biochemically testing the antibodies levels in the blood before and after the vaccine if it was really augmented or not....in your case..
all this will be clearer by time and analysis with different levels of infection severity...with more long covid sufferers..
Hasiba, post my bout of Covid I never really got rid of my cough (popular as hell at work ) it only went after I had my first Pfizer jab.... May just be coincidence but I definitely link the two events.
hyms..thank you for that ...
They are talking about antibodies response and enhanced immunity but nothing in relation to T cells “theory” of getting into the cells cleaning up and improve the long covid health sufferers which seems a fantastic magic to me.. I couldn’t see anything related to T lymphocytes cells which is born in our bone marrow and gets matured by our Thymus gland which can play a major role in our adaptive immune response and very crucial in our sclp second generation vaccine and this will differentiate us from the rest of the pack....
Long covidity sufferer defined as not recovered fully for several weeks or months...
Their clinical manifestations varies but include so far... “Profound fatigue” was a common symptom in most people with long covid, she said, but added that a wide range of other symptoms included cough, breathlessness, muscle and body aches, and chest heaviness or pressure, but also skin rashes, palpitations, fever, headache, diarrhoea, and pins and needles. “A very common feature is the relapsing, remitting nature of the illness, where you feel as though you’ve recovered, then it hits you back,” Ref.BMJ
What has been found regarding the level of IGG antibodies is the more severe infection an individual exposed to ..the higher level of these ABs were found and vic versa but some asymptotic infections had very little ABs level. So you can see these publications are all coming outs but need to be more specific of which infected individuals they found the vaccine has augmented their antibodies level or immunity.
Great to have a good scientific discussions.
Hasiba, I quote the imperial college study I forwarded earlier
“ It showed that a single dose of Pfizer/BioNTech’s RNA vaccine resulted in a significantly enhanced immune response against the virus, compared to a single dose in those without prior infection.
The enhanced response was at least an order of magnitude greater than after a conventional two-dose vaccine schedule in a previously uninfected individual.”
Long Covid is just a clinical description and I’m not so sure if it’s clearly defined - it’s an evolving phenomena. It doesn’t tell you what happens at cellular level. The above is probably relevant.
Bermuda that is really good news - vaccines and long Covid. Makes sense too.
Bshorts...
Theory is a proposed explanation of a finding of facts...just that. It will be magic if T cells can clear the infected damaged cells and improve the long covid health sufferers...
FYI I am involved in frontline healthcare and taken part in Oxford research in the pandemic and undergoing regular screening since the middle of last year and I can tell you from what I come across the long term covid sufferers are going to be a big burden for a while...many of them with unrepaired damaged lungs and I have not seen any significant improvement in them yet and a few already had the vaccine too...
GL
Perhaps The Times have someone reading the BBs for any juicy bits so they can get out ahead of Sky who actually speak to the companies concerned.
Time for a cuppa!
Hasiba
I am staggered at your conceit ref your parting shot to Bermudashorts in your 11.38.
He is one of the most pleasant and informed posters on this BB, and your comment,
"" and if you can then I may review your post worthiness again..""
is beyond the pale.
A little more respect from you to him might be worthwhile. You are not in a position to make such disparaging remarks to someone who is a very long way ahead of you in posting on matters scientific.
I believe it is you who is not worthy.
Hasiba
Coincidentally covered by The Times today:-
'Anecdotal reports that people with “long Covid” are making dramatic recoveries after being vaccinated are intriguing and should be followed up with formal studies, scientists said yesterday.
Most people recover from Covid-19 quickly but official figures show that one in ten who test positive still have at least one symptom, such as fatigue or headaches, three months later.
Some of these “long-hauler” patients are reporting improvements soon after vaccination, doctors say. “This is a very interesting and potentially important observation,” Charles Bangham, who holds the chair in immunology at Imperial College London, said. “At present these are just anecdotes, and systematic studies would be needed, but anecdotes can sometimes point the way to important discoveries.”'
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vaccine-may-ease-long-covid-suffering-th8dvrqht
hasiba
As I made absolutely clear last night - the evidence is anecdotal, mainly from doctors treating patients with long covid who have seen significant improvements in their condition following vaccination. There are several threads on twitter - have a look at Prof. Iwasaki and you might find a link there as I know she's commented on the matter. I would have provided the link for you but ............
BShorts....I am interested in the post you put last night 22.01 “ it seems that sufferers of long covid are seeing dramatic improvements in their condition following vaccination. It's all anecdotal at this stage of course and needs to be confirmed in trials, but the theory is that T cells generated by the immune response to the vaccine are going in and clearing a reservoir of virus infected cells in these patients. ”
Regarding the theory of T cell and its effects on long covid health sufferer...so if you have a link to this issue...please post here as I am aware of the rest with regards the AB ..and if you can then I may review your post worthiness again..
Hasiba,
I have no idea why you were unable to unearth anything via google - there has been a great deal of coverage over the last week or so suggesting that people who have already caught Covid may only need one vaccine jab (rather than prime/boost regime).
I know that you have previously told me that I'm not worthy of your attention, but I have put some links below that may be of help. If I'm still not worthy then feel free to ignore:)
The advice both in the UK and the US currently remains that if you have already caught Covid you definitely should still be vaccinated - I suspect larger studies will be needed before they drop the booster jab for this group.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/19/health/covid-vaccine-single-dose.html
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.05.21251182v1
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.07.21251311v1
Hi hyms and thank you for the links...
Though still no evidence of T cells role in improving previously infected individuals health with long covid health problems as stated by one poster last night ! This particular significant issue I am keen to read but couldn’t find it anywhere...on google or medical websites..
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/latest-findings-from-antibody-surveillance-study-published
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.imperial.ac.uk/news/215793/single-dose-vaccine-acts-booster-those/amp/
Hasiba, I hope that data is buried somewhere within these 2 studies - not the Scottish study. Coverage was on BBC WS yesterday. Lots of new data to help our understanding of the immune response to Covid pre- and post- vaccination. Any evidence of long term immunity will be the bigger success of the vaccination programme.
Our highly differentiated approach to the existing vaccines should attract Big Pharma partners.
Thank you hyms....
Please post a link when you find it ....I am interested to read it .
ATB
Hasiba, a recently published antibody study shows exactly that — is it the Scottish one?. I can’t find the link but certainly not stranged as we learned about Covid, the vaccine and our immune responses.
The previous infected person can have their IGG antibodies level tested every six month to check to see the level being sustained for protection rather than to have the vaccine that intended to have similar effect. In fact any previous viral infection can give better immunity than the vaccine itself and probably lasts longer...
Though I am not aware of any study or research which shows by giving the vaccine to long covid sufferers can benefit them....that will be something vey significant indeed..
Is there any link to read?
Ruck
It's happening all the time but there is a debate on whether or not they need the second booster jab as the first dose is in effect boosting the immune response from catching the virus itself - if that makes sense.
Thanks Bermuda,
Sounds sensible but the concept of vaccinating people AFTER they have contacted the disease is a little strange.
Ruck,
Yes, people who have caught and suffered from Covid and gone on to develop long covid. Current estimates suggest around 10% of patients end up with long covid, worth reading up on it if you haven't already. The focus is quite rightly on preventing people from being hospitalised and dying from covid but there's this build up of patients who may not have had severe covid to begin with but end up with this debilitating long term disease. Many can't work for months and months and it affects the young too. I think we're going to see a greater and greater focus on its impact and if you think that over 100m people have now had covid, the numbers of patients and the burden on healthcare systems and economies is significant.
Berm,
Just to be clear...
You are talking about people vaccinated AFTER they have contracted Covid?
Moving away from tonight's presentation for a moment, it seems that sufferers of long covid are seeing dramatic improvements in their condition following vaccination. It's all anecdotal at this stage of course and needs to be confirmed in trials, but the theory is that T cells generated by the immune response to the vaccine are going in and clearing a reservoir of virus infected cells in these patients. If true, this is fantastic news for patients and healthcare systems alike. Of course it also highlights the need for vaccines that are capable of generating potent T cell responses :)