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@gkb i think that was one of the points i was making there are lots of leaky ships around and loose lips sink ships
I certainly don’t view them as ‘the enemy’ I am more inclined to view BB certain posters in that vein particularly rampers and derampers that can suck in even the experienced whilst working their own, or a group, agenda. Us PI’s definitely are the fodder in the system, we can never be sure what is a buy and what is a sell most of the time and once Dark Pools come into play we are completely at a loss and these may account for more of the big trades than we will ever know.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/050614/introduction-dark-pools.asp
As PI’s We just need to be a bit sharper and learn how to play the game better, there is never a bad time to take profit just like there is never a good time to stop smoking (only smokers will understand that).
Now I am not naive enough to think that there aren’t lots of shenanigans going on of course there are there is lots of dosh swilling about but they are highly regulated just have a look at the Beaufort and Daily Mirror journalists scandals sometimes the regulators do have teeth.
https://citywire.co.uk/wealth-manager/news/beaufort-securities-charged-with-fraud-by-us-prosecutors/a1097638
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2005/dec/08/pressandpublishing.mirror1
These boards are full of ‘manipulation’ posts because if we can’t work out what is going on we resort to the lowest common denominator but you generally only see them when an SP is falling for no apparent reason hardly ever when it is rising.
BB myths such as MM codes are complete nonsense and they don’t see when an RNS is logged or have access to the contents before it is released. I spoke to the head of the RNS dept at LSE and he confirmed this. I posted details of this conversation on another BB a couple of years ago but of course some some posters did not believe it. An example of this is the effect an intraday RNS can have where the SP is drifting or trading in a range then either shoots up, or dives quicker than Tom Daley, after the news, but not before. If the SP rockets after the RNS this is usually followed by ‘they have been caught with their pants down’ posts but surely that can’t have happened because they seen the RNS an hour ago?. Extreme movements prior to news I put down to insider knowledge and a leaky ship which is what I think happened here last week.
This is all of course just my opinion and my take on what I have experienced over the last decade or so, no doubt there are lots who will take a different view.
One thing is for sure we never stop learning in this game.
Oh one last thing is it just me or does it give anyone else the pip when posters sign off with their user name?
ATB
Dryland
Ps £10 next week anyone? ??
Some great detailed posts here over the weekend thanks to all involved for that. Certainly improved my knowledge although I must admit I didn’t quite grasp some of it probably because I can be a bit of a dullard on occasion.
This is my take on MM’s.
I think the idea that they are sitting with there feet up on the desk quaffing bubbly, smoking Cubans, watching shares like a hawk with their sole purpose to relieve PI’s of there hard earned is misguided it wouldn’t surprise me if they haven’t got a clue what a lot of the companies they trade in does never mind ‘they know what’s coming’. The truth is PI’s are very good at losing cash without any assistance from MM’s. Market making is driven by algo’s which of course are designed to ensure they make a profit they are a business after all. So in essence they have to respond to any movements in the market and provide liquidity.
They are ‘not much different than a grocer except they buy and sell stocks instead of vegetables. Without grocers, consumers of vegetables would have to buy directly from farmers. What if the farmer isn’t selling when consumers are buying or vice versa? If there are lots of consumers and farmers in an area then the timing problem is mitigated. Otherwise a grocer can solve the timing problem by providing immediacy for both the farmer and consumer. Similar to a grocer a stock market maker buys stock from sellers by bidding for them and sells to buyer by offering to sell to them. As with vegetables, if there are lots of buyers and sellers of stocks then a market maker is not necessary.’
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/289034/12-1069-eia8-minimum-obligations-of-market-makers.pdf
"they can't keep the price down forever if the demand is there."
That's good enough for me Doctor. I will stop being so concerned.
Done my research (with the help of many brilliant posters on here).
Understand the MM hunting for stop losses (don't know why PI's use this but hey ho). Understand looking for sellers by raising the price or lowering them.
Guess I was spooked a bit by Mon, Tue, Weds of this week but my balls are big enough to enjoy the great Avacta journey to the end.
Thanks Time Lord
The MMs are not the spawn of satan you know... they do actually perform and essential role - which is providing liquidity in small cap stocks. Their job is to make a market where there might not otherwise be one.
They set the price in order to meet the demands of the market, to balance their books, and to make money - that's what we're all here for after all! I can't claim to know how they go about their business in any great detail but obviously they need a reserve of shares in order for us to be able to buy them. They acquire shares by either dropping or raising the price in order to encourage us to sell or to hit stop losses. If a big RNS drops on Monday and they don't have enough shares to sell then they will have to raise the price in order to induce people to sell. Another possibility might be to sell the shares in advance and then drop the price heavily to hit stop losses. Either way, it doesn't matter to the investor, they can't keep the price down forever if the demand is there.
Ultimately it's up to the PI to do their research, take their position and not worry about daily price swings.
I won't be putting an order in but thanks again Phantom.
Gazza, should you put in a market order before open or wait 15 minutes is a tough call. Ill let some experts give their opinion. Dont forget the MMs will probably have a quick peek here to try and judge the mood
Thanks Phantom.
Just like to add although we all hate MMs they are needed for a stock that normally has low volume. the problem here is lately Avacta has quite high daily volume
I would the say MMs havnt got full control but if they judge it right they can influence sentiment. But it gets more difficult if PIs are committed. Also remember that MMs are like a shop and if they run out of stock they have to try and get some more. They can do this by lowering the price or raising it. If they make a sharp drop they may spook holders into selling. But also if they take the stock higher they can attract sellers for profit. One thing they will do to put off buyers is to widen the spread, no one likes buying a share and immediately being in the red by a large margin. All my experience only of course
*future products not being approved
I don't mean to bring this wonderful day down but.
How much influence do the MM have on the share price on AIM?
I mean. Let's say that loads of people put buy orders in over this weekend. We get a great RNS on Monday morning (not saying that we are getting an RNS on Monday btw). Is it possible for the MM to keep the SP down even when the demand by far out strips demand?
As a novice (like a few posters are on here), am I right in stating that the MM can manipulate / dictate the price because this is AIM compared to the FTSE that uses SETS?
Like I said earlier, I don't mean to bring anyone down and deep down I know that the MM will find it hard to tame this baby with any good news (hopefully this week coming).
I believe in Avacta 100% and I'm in here all the way. I don't believe in the MM on AIM. I also think that Avacta's biggest enemy is not about any future products being approved but the actions of the MM. How far can they bend the rules? Are they above the trading laws - turning a blind eye so to speak because everyone on the shop floor is doing it?