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Dodgepot: 'outcome' as in 'process mandated by referendum halted by Parliament'.
A Tory government was given the job to leave. The Tories were re-elected (just). So the people have spoken twice and nominated a weakened Tory Government for the job. Today's position is a consequence of that democratic process and the disproportionate influence of the DUP - which is apparently now the only block to the Government.
If Parliament continues to block the people's will then the only proper solutions are either to hold another G Election (which could prolong the stalemate) or to hold a Referendum to proceed immediately as originally mandated or halt the process entirely (Remain). The latter option would be decisive and, unless the public have changed their minds, would continue the process as originally voted for.
If dissatisfaction is any measure, T M's negotiated withdrawal is very close to the political middle ground - hence unsupported by any majority group. It may be ghastly for many but then it was never going to please all factions. It is only a transition arrangement - the meat is still to be chewed over.
Without, Good to have you back, rants and all...
Dodgepot, no, just Genel related in hours, bit of banter and Rugby out of hours. :-)
Boys, not too sure the outcome "could not possibly be the same" when
the 1st outcome was not possible if I recall listening to all the smart
money...
Without, I hope you haven't come back posting just
to rant !!!!
Hi Boyobach, have decided to keep posting, life's to short to be silly over something so trivial.
I agree with Highlander, no deal was ever mentioned, straight answer on the ballot paper, Remain or Leave.
Treason May thought the leave deal, the question I'd like answered is who there right mind would do deal and sign it off before bringing it back to Parliament to be discussed, my experience in business is you sign on the dotted line when both parties agree, she took it upon herself to sign the withdrawal agreement, omitting to tell the 600 odd MPs.
That's why we're in the mess we are now, once signed she had no bargaining power at all.
Where were all the high paid Lawyers and the negotiatiers when signing took place. Lol and these people are running the country FFs
Anyway strictly Genel between 8 and 4.30 ATB Withoutt
Ps and don't get me started on Chris Graling. 33 million Down the drain with one stroke of his Pen, right rant over.
Highlander -
The vote in 2016 did not specify what the withdrawal agreement would be like - Government was mandated to negotiate it and has done so. The fact that maybe you & I don't like it is technically irrelevant - it was a 'blank cheque' in that regard. If they had got it through Parliament already then job done. A second referendum would potentially bypass the Parliamentary stalemate and ratify the final deal. Once implemented, which would be very quick, there could be no going back within a generation.
Boyo, The people voted to leave, not to dream up a half in vassal state deal. The very idea of a second vote is ludicrous for the simple reason that a "best of three" would automatically be on the table. The people's vote was carried out in 2016, the government have to deliver as promised. They voted to trigger article 50 and there was a general election where their mandate was to leave. Now they are changing their tune and it will crucify them at the next vote. Time to deliver.
Dodgepot: Boyo, what does not appear to be considered is if the outcome of a 2nd Referendum is the same as
the 1st, ie Leave, then what has been gained ?
The outcome could not possibly be the same if the correct question is asked (and, contrary to some suppositions here, I don't make an argument either way for remain/stay). Based on the facts:
Following the Referendum, the Government negotiated withdrawal terms exactly as the people instructed them to do but Parliament has prevented them from proceeding. The people gave the task to Government not Parliament.
Because of the impasse with Parliament, which is currently blocking the people's mandate, it would be legitimate for the Government to directly ask the electorate:
Do you want to proceed with withdrawal from the EU now that you know the terms or not ?
A yes would result in completion of the process that was voted for first time, ie on the terms duly negotiated by TM's Government, a 'No' would scrap Brexit.
It sounds neat enough but, of course, it's likely that Parliament would try to prevent the people being given such a choice because it would either provide a Brexit that isn't hard enough for some factions or no Brexit at all.
Upwards of c1m marched for remain on Saturday. c700k marched last year. 70 marched from Yarrow with Farage. 5.5m have signed that petition which keeps crashing.
Go figure...
But if the result is the same, folk like me *will* shut up and more than likely think seriously about a move away from Little Britain- I certainly will.
Boyo, what does not appear to be considered is
if the outcome of a 2nd Referendum is the same as
the 1st, ie Leave, then what has been gained ?
Moreover, do we then restart from 1st base with
negotiations for a new agreement....??
The only winner here is N.Ireland who will keep bleeding
the Government for more dosh for “potential”votes...
Yes Boyo, a tiny star - you certainly have something in common with t.may in that respect
Good to have a Leaver and a Remainer unhappy with me bunks. Do I get a star for that?
NI was mentioned..... not in the official Government document presenting the risks to the electorate. That was my point.
Indeed bunks - enough - but important factual points are not a matter of opinion. I didn't express an overall view either way on leave/remain but believe that we have all been let down by the process.
I think there's a good chance G will pick up from here - just need OP to firm a bit.
Give it a rest boyobach.
NI was mentioned- it was dispelled by many, and still is, under project fear. Have a look at what Prof Michael Dougan said in early 2016- He was spot on with `industrial scale lies` by leave and the constitutional crisis which we are now experiencing. He also mentioned NI.
This mess is a direct result of being lied to by ALL the various leave protagonists. What hasn`t helped is the pretty much continuous misleading guff about the EU from the right wing rags over the last 10 years or so.
When Leave lied, cheated and made unattainable promises about what was achievable by leaving then they were also going to be made to look foolish when it all began to unravel. Parliament is dealing with it as best is can now.
Remember there are or were 12 investigation into what leave got up to at the referendum ...4 criminal investigations. Both leave parties have been done for electoral fraud, and fined heavily, and TM ignores it. How is allowing cheating to `win` good for democracy?
If there was some marvellous `win` by leaving then many would be up for it and wouldn`t have changed their minds. Even the ridiculous sound bite `taking back control` is busted- as if anything we have lost control in so many ways but perhaps most importantly as a leading player and influencer in the EU around the World. We are just a a laughing stock, Little Britain.
Enough now - lovin the cluster F reference btw, I used to work for a kiwi who used that one a lot
Boyo
We have a different views on this issue and better focus on G...eh!
Good morning All
Cheers Hasiba - thanks for confirming my point re the radical transformation of the EEC (membership of which was ratified by a referendum) to the more integrated structure of the EU (upon which the people of the UK were not consulted).
Let's get on with a General Election eh?
Cont......
Curtesy of Wikipedia...”...”
“The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957.[2] Upon the formation of the European Union (EU) in 1993, the EEC was incorporated and renamed as the European Community (EC). In 2009 the EC's institutions were absorbed into the EU's wider framework and the community ceased to exist.”
We should have never joined and signed then and years later.
Britain did not need EEC or EU then and now...and that is why we ended in a mess now imho.
Britain has been humiliated by the EEC leaders sticking together....
They (& we) are in the EU rather than EEC, which was a profoundly different thing and which is why many people would agree with you about the need to leave, Hasiba. I anticipate that leaving the EU will probably be a bit like leaving the mafia - good for one's soul but bad for one's health.
Had we been given a referendum prior to the Maastricht Treaty then maybe all of this could have been avoided. John Major - who was apparently quoted as saying that he did not believe in Referendums - is ultimately responsible for today’s crisis which is a direct result of the move from economic to political integration..
The fact that EU Leaders have stuck together shouldn’t be a surprise or viewed as a conspiracy. Why would they not do so? If the UK has been humiliated by something that was so obvious and inevitable it shows a pretty stunning degree of stupidity by our political class. Ironically it was a king of England - Cnut - who made this exact point but is often misrepresented as the fool expecting the tide to reverse according to his will.
Britain has been humiliated by the EEC leaders sticking together.... and our inept politicians from all directions are fighting each ithers for party political aims and self serving future gains. They are not representing the people votes to leave. TM must leave as she failed to deliver as a PM. General elections would not serve the problem and another referendum but just creating more chaos and uncertainty. Deal or no deal just get out ffs. People did not vote to have a deal or not , they voted to get out and for the government and parliament to do this.
I understand there will be some adjustments to the new Britain but we will too have the responsibility to accept this as we voted for it. We have to be more british and be self reliant and deal with the rest of the world including our neighbors and friends in the EEU.
No deal is better than disastrous TM deal.
Underachieving is correct here JL. The British public- leavers and remainers alike - have deserved much better. It’s not been an example of world-class political leadership. Let's hope the worst of them get kicked out soon.
In the Government leaflet pre-Referendum it states that the Government will implement what the people decide. Parliament has since taken control and prevented the Government from carrying out its mandated job. In doing so, it has also failed to produce a satisfactory alternative and exposed the UK to what it itself deems a greater risk. Under these circumstance it is highly arrogant of our hopeless politicians to deny the UK public either a General Election or a Referendum.
The UK public has been failed at three key levels. Firstly and most seriously by Government, which called a referendum but, in rightly or wrongly recommending ‘Remain’, failed to competently spell out all the risks to electors of EU departure (there was no mention of NI border issues in the official Government advice, for example)
Secondly, Government has arrived at a negotiated proposal that did not pass parliamentary scrutiny. This was the result of insufficient cross-party involvement, due to Tory arrogance and Labour self-interest.
Thirdly, parliament has wilfully prevented Government from carrying out its publicly mandated task, without setting out a clear, practical and acceptable alternative. The latter issue should have been addressed by a competent opposition focused on national interest rather than ideological dogma.
The respective parties (large and small) have all failed us dismally and, having caused a breakdown in democratic process, I feel they are morally duty bound to refer the matter back to the UK public. Either by means of a G Election or a further Referendum based on leaving under the Government's current negotiated agreement (as promised and mandated first time around) or remaining (on the basis that Parliament has been unable to endorse the Government negotiated terms). This is not, of course, a re-run of the original Referendum, as the issue of Government implementation (vague in the first one) is now crystal clear.
They are still at it.. those intransigent MPs, botching Brexit and claiming ridiculous expenses.
I give you Britain's richest MP who claimed £6.80 for a toilet seat and then £10.87 for a replacement soon after. WTF was he doing, reading a lads mag?
And heh...Mogadon Hunt claimed £1200 for spectacles and eye tests, Selous a Tory MP claimed £30 for quills for letterhead artwork...the list goes on as does the damage to the reputation of a Patliament unable to keep in check the members.
Currently our overworked under achieving representatives are claiming 22% more in tax payer funded expenses than at the height of duck house, moat cleaning crisis of 2009.
FFS i could jog along on £77k a year and have no need to claim sod all.